2020/12/05

2020-12-05 00:00:12 +0100 <texasmynsted> Pulling the x and y from the where makes it easier for me to see the actual types because I can have a full type sig
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2020-12-05 00:07:35 +0100 <texasmynsted> oh treblacy, sorry I did not see your comment in there
2020-12-05 00:10:38 +0100 <texasmynsted> :-) Okay thank you all.
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2020-12-05 00:13:35 +0100 <texasmynsted> oh yeah monochrom, I did not know that was you
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2020-12-05 00:13:49 +0100 <texasmynsted> yes, nice avatar
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2020-12-05 00:19:09 +0100 <texasmynsted> snap, now here are more books I need/want to read http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/fpbooks.xhtml
2020-12-05 00:19:20 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2020-12-05 00:19:23 +0100 <monochrom> haha
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2020-12-05 00:21:30 +0100 <texasmynsted> Oooh. The Algebra of Programming. That one is near unobtainable
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2020-12-05 00:23:35 +0100 <Rembane> Is that Knuth's?
2020-12-05 00:23:55 +0100 <monochrom> Richard Bird and Oege de Moor
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2020-12-05 00:25:03 +0100 <Rembane> Thank you
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2020-12-05 00:32:50 +0100 <dsal> I found last night that Text is not Foldable and that made me a little sad.
2020-12-05 00:35:18 +0100 <texasmynsted> it is not? Is it because of unicode or something?
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2020-12-05 00:36:09 +0100 <texasmynsted> The Algebra of Programming needs to be re-printed so I can get a copy. Heh
2020-12-05 00:37:25 +0100 <texasmynsted> I could try ILL (Inter-library-loan) but most often when I do that I find that I really really want the book. Hehe
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2020-12-05 00:41:41 +0100 <Guest41303> is there any reason why elem is conventionally used as infix?
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2020-12-05 00:42:22 +0100 <Guest41303> to the point of hlint even suggesting it
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2020-12-05 00:45:18 +0100 <dolio> x ∈ X
2020-12-05 00:46:39 +0100 <Guest41303> fair
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2020-12-05 00:53:04 +0100 <glguy> > 0 `elem` 1 : 2 : 3 : []
2020-12-05 00:53:07 +0100 <lambdabot> False
2020-12-05 00:54:11 +0100 <monochrom> texasmynsted: Text is not Foldable because it is not a polymorphic type like [] and Vector. But there is a monofoldable library for these cases.
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2020-12-05 00:55:43 +0100 <texasmynsted> oh that makes sense
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2020-12-05 00:56:27 +0100 <shinobi_> If you are creating submodules and are using common helper functions that are not going to be exported, where do you put them? In a separate "common" submodule? A parent module?
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2020-12-05 00:57:10 +0100 <dsal> If they're not exported, you put them where you need them.
2020-12-05 00:57:18 +0100 <sm[m]> I tend to make a Common module in the same directory
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2020-12-05 01:31:38 +0100 <texasmynsted> I see this --> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/fix-imports
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2020-12-05 01:32:43 +0100 <texasmynsted> Is this the best way to fix my imports?
2020-12-05 01:33:18 +0100 <texasmynsted> second best ... best being manually
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2020-12-05 01:55:59 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> what's broken about them?
2020-12-05 01:56:39 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> glguy: is there a way to change the order that specs show up in `generateDocs`?
2020-12-05 01:57:32 +0100 <glguy> Umm...
2020-12-05 01:58:46 +0100 <glguy> Looks like it's just alphabetical now. Better ideas?
2020-12-05 01:59:10 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> I think it'd make better sense to go in hierarchical order
2020-12-05 01:59:11 +0100 <glguy> alphabetical for named things, order of appearance for individual things
2020-12-05 01:59:37 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ah, yea I think order of appearance across-the-board makes more sense, b/c otherwise the documention is a bit confusing
2020-12-05 01:59:40 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> here let me share one h/o.
2020-12-05 02:00:14 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
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2020-12-05 02:00:43 +0100 <ephemient> what's the current "alphabetical"? I convinced hspec to sort by "natural" instead of "lexicographic" a while back https://github.com/hspec/hspec/pull/337
2020-12-05 02:01:21 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> glguy: https://dpaste.com/2BW5GXBSX so here, since there's no preamble to the docs or anything, I start reading at "Top-Level" and get to "REQUIRED Input-File-Columns" and I'm left wondering "what is that?!", and then I get to "Amount-Column" and start to get lost
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2020-12-05 02:01:33 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> I know it's a little thing, but for a less tech-savvy user this could be quite confusing.
2020-12-05 02:01:43 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 02:02:04 +0100 <glguy> I'm quite open to improvements here; I just didn't know what to do
2020-12-05 02:03:18 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ephemient: hey I use hspec! it's always sorted in the order I define specs, you're saying this change is recent?
2020-12-05 02:03:42 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> glguy: 👍️, I'll take a look at the code, see if I can muster up a pr
2020-12-05 02:04:07 +0100 <ephemient> no, my change just affects hspec-discover order... if you define your specs yourself, then it's in that order
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2020-12-05 02:04:29 +0100 <glguy> ezzieyguywuf: PRs are fantastic, but even sketches of what you think would look nicer are useful
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2020-12-05 02:04:44 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ah hah. wait I think I use hspec-discover too, but it's only ever had to discover a single file lol.
2020-12-05 02:04:59 +0100Jonkimi727406120(~Jonkimi@223.213.165.31)
2020-12-05 02:05:36 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> i wonder why they didn't want the dependency on `text`. `parsec` I kind of get..
2020-12-05 02:06:30 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> wow what a great pr, and code review, and eventual merge!
2020-12-05 02:07:57 +0100 <glguy> ezzieyguywuf: Also there doesn't have to be the one-true-documentation-generator. It could make sense for a module to generate Markdown or HTML or something else entirely
2020-12-05 02:08:29 +0100 <glguy> And the data types are exposed if you want to experiment with consuming the specs in different ways
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2020-12-05 02:16:58 +0100 <doct0rhu> `ghci` loads `./.ghci` before` `$HOME/.ghci`, which seems strange to me
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2020-12-05 02:18:00 +0100 <doct0rhu> usually per-directory/project configs overrides per-user configs
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2020-12-05 02:19:45 +0100 <doct0rhu> specifically, users may want to `:def` some variations of commands that uses a per-directory arguments
2020-12-05 02:20:30 +0100 <doct0rhu> but they have to use a different name or otherwise that'd be overridden by the same named one in `$HOME/.ghci`
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2020-12-05 02:33:10 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:33:50 +0100 <Sayless> What's everyone working on?
2020-12-05 02:33:56 +0100DavidEichmann(~david@62.110.198.146.dyn.plus.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:34:05 +0100AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:34:32 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:35:27 +0100catchme(uid355354@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-efeidyvsbqvqtcow) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-05 02:38:08 +0100 <dsal> adventofcode, though I kind of need to build a thing that lets me upload to S3 the same way my GoPro thing does.
2020-12-05 02:40:20 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-12-05 02:41:06 +0100 <solonarv> I've also been doing AoC, besides uni stuff (which isn't haskell but does involve some programming)
2020-12-05 02:42:00 +0100Lord_of_Life_(~Lord@46.217.216.2)
2020-12-05 02:43:15 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 02:43:18 +0100Jonkimi727406120(~Jonkimi@223.213.165.31) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:44:08 +0100 <Sayless> that's interesting! I've been doing some stuff on leetcode. This could be a nice change
2020-12-05 02:44:44 +0100Lord_of_Life(~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:44:57 +0100blissful(~azuline@unaffiliated/azuline) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2020-12-05 02:45:39 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 02:46:08 +0100 <dsal> I've written a lot of Haskell I rely on this year. But it's puzzle season.
2020-12-05 02:46:43 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 02:48:11 +0100 <Sayless> I never heard about AoC before! Looks cool. I've been torn between scala and haskell this year as my hobby language
2020-12-05 02:48:40 +0100blissful(~azuline@unaffiliated/azuline)
2020-12-05 02:49:08 +0100 <dsal> Well, there's likely bias here, but I use haskell for everything except when I can't.
2020-12-05 02:49:24 +0100blissful(~azuline@unaffiliated/azuline) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 02:50:36 +0100 <Sayless> I love reading about Haskell and reading its code. It was my first preference. The one thing i've found as a barrier of entry is libraries and documentation surrounding them as a newcomer
2020-12-05 02:52:05 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:53:50 +0100 <Sayless> I definitely prefer it between the two. I have found it easier to port something out of Java and use it in Scala however. Maybe I'll just become more fluent with libs and packages in Haskell over time
2020-12-05 02:55:33 +0100blissful(~azuline@unaffiliated/azuline)
2020-12-05 02:57:16 +0100pjb(~t@2a01cb04063ec500f481f246a0d62c86.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-12-05 02:57:54 +0100blissful(~azuline@unaffiliated/azuline) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 02:58:45 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:2542:c60f:3a80:283) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 02:59:00 +0100 <dsal> Yeah, to be fair, I find documentation for new languages hard to read in general. Part of haskell's problem there is so much is common.
2020-12-05 02:59:15 +0100nfd9001(~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 02:59:33 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
2020-12-05 02:59:41 +0100 <dsal> So if I give you a data structure and tell you it's foldable, applicative, traversable, etc... you know a *lot* about what you can do with it without me having to say what all those things are.
2020-12-05 03:01:50 +0100blissful(~azuline@unaffiliated/azuline)
2020-12-05 03:01:54 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 03:02:45 +0100 <nfd9001> Hey, I'm trying to learn megaparsec for AoC day 4 and don't want to look at y'alls full spoilers yet; I'm trying to use Control.Applicative.Permutations and I think it looks nice to try to use a do-style for name binding (despite that all I really need is Alternative power)
2020-12-05 03:03:07 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-05 03:03:26 +0100 <dsal> You can use do if you want, but there's no do in my day4.
2020-12-05 03:03:31 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 03:04:03 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:04:17 +0100 <nfd9001> So I have something like passportParser = runPermutation $ do byc <- toPermutationWithDefault Nothing (...); ...; pure (P byc...)
2020-12-05 03:04:21 +0100 <c_wraith> I used do a lot in my validation code without even touching parsers
2020-12-05 03:04:53 +0100 <nfd9001> i mean, i know i can do this without fancy parser combinators, but it seemed like a nice opportunity to learn them
2020-12-05 03:05:24 +0100 <dsal> Sure, half the reason for solving the puzzles is learning new things. :)
2020-12-05 03:05:38 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 03:06:57 +0100 <iqubic> I learned about refinement types today. Why bother validating stuff when you can have the types/another library do it for you.
2020-12-05 03:07:36 +0100 <nfd9001> anybody familiar with a way i can use those tools with that kind of idiom? there's not a ton of tutorials on using just parser-combinators/megaparsec's Control.Applicative.Permutations or anything
2020-12-05 03:08:37 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:08:50 +0100tinwood(~tinwood@general.default.akavanagh.uk0.bigv.io) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 03:09:07 +0100 <nfd9001> i clearly have some simple type confusion going on here that I can brain out/share but I figured somebody might've written something on this I hadn't seen
2020-12-05 03:09:45 +0100bgamari(~bgamari@72.65.101.184)
2020-12-05 03:10:35 +0100bgamari_(~bgamari@72.65.104.220) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:10:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:11:05 +0100hpc(~juzz@ip98-169-35-13.dc.dc.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:11:58 +0100tinwood(~tinwood@general.default.akavanagh.uk0.bigv.io)
2020-12-05 03:12:14 +0100 <nfd9001> it seems like this do block inferred that it was supposed to be in the Maybe monad, so i assume flipping on ApplicativeDo is probably part of this
2020-12-05 03:13:56 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 03:15:24 +0100dustypacer(~pi@2600:6c50:80:2f4a:e9d0:6569:1cea:d1d4)
2020-12-05 03:17:26 +0100 <ephemient> I've done some crazy things with megaparsec - looking back at aoc2019d25, I fed input back into the parser while it is running. I don't know what I was thinking :)
2020-12-05 03:18:20 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net)
2020-12-05 03:19:29 +0100rcdilorenzo(~rcdiloren@cpe-76-182-87-188.nc.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 03:19:40 +0100 <nfd9001> hey, it's not "crazy" if it's "art"
2020-12-05 03:20:08 +0100 <ephemient> in any case, hart to tell from your description, but it does sound like you've just mixed up some types somewhere. have any code to share?
2020-12-05 03:21:23 +0100rcdilorenzo(~rcdiloren@cpe-76-182-87-188.nc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 03:21:37 +0100rcdilorenzo(~rcdiloren@cpe-76-182-87-188.nc.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 03:23:43 +0100xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:53bd:d700:c516:168f:1d32:856e) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:25:11 +0100xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:53f4:6600:356b:2da8:97c9:b5cf)
2020-12-05 03:26:41 +0100 <nfd9001> yeah, i just mixed up where i was trying to inject a (\x -> Just x) into my equation
2020-12-05 03:26:58 +0100 <nfd9001> foolishly joined IRC on a different box than the one i'm typing this on so sec
2020-12-05 03:28:35 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
2020-12-05 03:29:16 +0100 <nfd9001> with ``let tPDN = toPermutationWithDefault Nothing`` i was doing stuff with the pattern ``val <- tPDN $ (\x -> Just x) <$> lexeme $ string "val:" *> someParser``
2020-12-05 03:30:00 +0100 <nfd9001> i wanted ``val <- tPDN $ lexeme $ string "val:" *> pure (\x -> Just x) <*> someParser``
2020-12-05 03:31:02 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:33:02 +0100 <ephemient> pure Just <*> someParser === Just <$> someParser
2020-12-05 03:33:03 +0100 <nfd9001> my errors were a little confusing at first because these Permutations are only Alternative m => Applicative (Permutation m)
2020-12-05 03:33:12 +0100Vulfe_(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:34c4:973d:64b1:cdbd)
2020-12-05 03:33:18 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:33:26 +0100 <solonarv> also, (\x -> Just x) = Just
2020-12-05 03:33:26 +0100 <nfd9001> and i had ApplicativeDo off
2020-12-05 03:33:35 +0100crestfallen(~jvw@192-184-135-144.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
2020-12-05 03:33:56 +0100 <crestfallen> hi real quick is isSpace :: Char -> BoolSource#
2020-12-05 03:34:02 +0100 <nfd9001> tyty, i'd tried using the constructor without that once and ran into some issue, but i was probably just doing something wrong elsewhere
2020-12-05 03:34:18 +0100 <crestfallen> Returns True for any Unicode space character
2020-12-05 03:34:22 +0100 <crestfallen> sorry ..
2020-12-05 03:34:41 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 03:34:52 +0100 <crestfallen> is any unicode space char also alphaNumeric?
2020-12-05 03:34:59 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29)
2020-12-05 03:35:03 +0100 <solonarv> no, alphanumeric means "letter or digit"
2020-12-05 03:35:06 +0100 <nfd9001> crestfallen: in what library? but I'd expect it's Char -> Bool for most libs
2020-12-05 03:35:07 +0100 <nfd9001> or similar
2020-12-05 03:35:19 +0100 <solonarv> (it's in base, Data.Char to be specific)
2020-12-05 03:35:26 +0100 <monochrom> The "Source#" is an artifact of copy-paste error
2020-12-05 03:35:40 +0100 <nfd9001> Data.Char.isSpace is Char -> Bool yes
2020-12-05 03:35:54 +0100 <ephemient> crestfallen: https://www.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/PropList.txt has a list of all characters for each unicode property
2020-12-05 03:36:08 +0100 <monochrom> Since there is also isAlphaNum, you could have done a few little tests yourself.
2020-12-05 03:36:10 +0100 <crestfallen> I have a function alphanum :: Parser Char 69 alphanum = satisfy isAlphaNum
2020-12-05 03:36:15 +0100 <crestfallen> shit
2020-12-05 03:36:53 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 03:37:05 +0100 <crestfallen> I have a function alphanum = satisfy isAlphaNum and to my surprise it accepts spaces in the middle of a string
2020-12-05 03:37:33 +0100 <ephemient> there's Text.Megaparsec.Char.alphaNumChar :: Parsec e Char (more or less)
2020-12-05 03:37:34 +0100Vulfe_(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:34c4:973d:64b1:cdbd) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:37:48 +0100 <monochrom> You can easily test your hypothesis with isAlphaNum ' '
2020-12-05 03:37:53 +0100 <solonarv> yes, which parser library are you using?
2020-12-05 03:38:14 +0100 <monochrom> In fact, s/test/refute/
2020-12-05 03:38:16 +0100dave_uy(~david@108.61.193.26)
2020-12-05 03:38:24 +0100 <crestfallen> thanks monochrom et al. let me paste: http://ix.io/2GFv
2020-12-05 03:38:35 +0100 <solonarv> also, that. don't be afraid to jump into ghci and test things by hand!
2020-12-05 03:38:46 +0100 <monochrom> Well there goes the Socratic method.
2020-12-05 03:39:21 +0100 <crestfallen> in question in the function "identifier"
2020-12-05 03:39:42 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:40:43 +0100byorgey(~byorgey@155.138.238.211)
2020-12-05 03:41:17 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy)
2020-12-05 03:42:18 +0100Ekho(~Ekho@unaffiliated/ekho) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:42:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 03:43:47 +0100benjamingr__(uid23465@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jwefvpayxcoyisfw) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-05 03:43:58 +0100 <crestfallen> . λ> parse alphanum " "
2020-12-05 03:44:00 +0100 <crestfallen> []
2020-12-05 03:45:11 +0100 <ephemient> > [c | c <- ['\0'..'\xffff'], isAlphaNum c && isSpace c]
2020-12-05 03:45:14 +0100 <lambdabot> ""
2020-12-05 03:45:16 +0100 <monochrom> And you think that's a bug because...?
2020-12-05 03:45:21 +0100cole-h(~cole-h@c-73-48-197-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 03:45:38 +0100 <crestfallen> λ> parse alphanum "ll mm"
2020-12-05 03:45:43 +0100Ekho(~Ekho@unaffiliated/ekho)
2020-12-05 03:46:06 +0100 <crestfallen> [('l',"l mm")]
2020-12-05 03:46:19 +0100bgamari_(~bgamari@72.65.103.183)
2020-12-05 03:46:22 +0100bcmiller(~bm3719@66.42.95.185)
2020-12-05 03:46:24 +0100 <solonarv> I still don't see a bug here, that seems correct
2020-12-05 03:46:29 +0100 <crestfallen> thanks just sorting it out. not saying its a bug
2020-12-05 03:46:56 +0100bgamari(~bgamari@72.65.101.184) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:47:08 +0100 <ephemient> "I have a function alphanum = satisfy isAlphaNum and to my surprise it accepts spaces in the middle of a string" what is an example of that
2020-12-05 03:48:13 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> crestfallen: only 'l' was parsed there, "l mm" is the unparsed remainder
2020-12-05 03:48:44 +0100 <ephemient> ... yes, because satisfy is defined to take only one token
2020-12-05 03:48:48 +0100 <crestfallen> MarcelineVQ: thanks that's what I overlooked
2020-12-05 03:49:16 +0100 <crestfallen> so the remainder never makes it to the predicate
2020-12-05 03:51:13 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 03:51:20 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> satisfy parses at most a single Char as ephemient is suggesting
2020-12-05 03:53:03 +0100 <crestfallen> yeah understood thanks MarcelineVQ ephemient solonarv et al
2020-12-05 03:57:29 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> I don't understand this error: https://dpaste.com/4VUP2WU2A
2020-12-05 03:57:30 +0100olligobber(olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 03:57:47 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> The "expected" and "got" seem to match
2020-12-05 03:58:08 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:34c4:973d:64b1:cdbd)
2020-12-05 03:59:12 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@212.102.44.36) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 03:59:32 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> probably Text.Megaparsec.Stream.Token Text is an associated type that resolves to Char
2020-12-05 03:59:37 +0100 <ephemient> Text and (Text.Megaparsec.Stream.Token Text) don't seem to match
2020-12-05 03:59:59 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@212.102.44.36)
2020-12-05 04:00:09 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@212.102.44.36) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 04:00:20 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ahhh
2020-12-05 04:00:34 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> so `Text.singleton <$> letterChar` fixes it
2020-12-05 04:00:56 +0100 <crestfallen> so my book prefers do blocks while dealing with parsers. is that the norm generally?
2020-12-05 04:01:04 +0100 <ephemient> if you're expecting nLetter :: Text, then yes
2020-12-05 04:01:07 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> but since the type of `letterChar` is `m (Token s)`, I didn't think I'd have to explicitly make it a Text
2020-12-05 04:01:25 +0100ekleog(~ii@prologin/ekleog) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:01:29 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> yea, nLetter :: Text is expected
2020-12-05 04:01:55 +0100 <crestfallen> since members have suggested I work with (>>=) if I can..
2020-12-05 04:01:58 +0100ekleog_(~ii@prologin/ekleog)
2020-12-05 04:02:32 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:34c4:973d:64b1:cdbd) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:02:37 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-05 04:03:02 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 04:03:30 +0100 <ephemient> it's equivalent (except under extensions like ApplicativeDo)
2020-12-05 04:03:39 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> They suggested that just because you didn't understand >>= or do, not because it's generally preferred
2020-12-05 04:04:20 +0100 <ephemient> if you're still figuring things out, I would suggest >>= until you understand
2020-12-05 04:07:32 +0100 <crestfallen> I roughly understand the State Monad, so MarcelineVQ and everyone thanks a lot, it took my months but I'm comfortable generally
2020-12-05 04:07:36 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:07:42 +0100 <crestfallen> me*
2020-12-05 04:07:43 +0100philopso1(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius)
2020-12-05 04:07:46 +0100philopso1(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 04:08:05 +0100 <crestfallen> thanks yeah ephemient I prefer it somehow
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2020-12-05 04:13:20 +0100heredoc(heredoc@2a01:7e01::f03c:91ff:fec1:de1d) (*.net *.split)
2020-12-05 04:13:20 +0100hyiltiz-M(hyiltizkde@gateway/shell/kde/matrix/x-zvgetfbstubrdqzf) (*.net *.split)
2020-12-05 04:13:20 +0100_flow_(~none@salem.informatik.uni-erlangen.de) (*.net *.split)
2020-12-05 04:13:20 +0100joeyh_(joeyh@kitenet.net) (*.net *.split)
2020-12-05 04:13:20 +0100thonkpod(~thonkpod@2001:19f0:ac01:b46:5400:1ff:fec7:d73d) (*.net *.split)
2020-12-05 04:13:20 +0100opqdonut(opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (*.net *.split)
2020-12-05 04:13:26 +0100 <nfd9001> alright i'm still missing something probably really silly here; i'd appreciate if someone would give this a quick spotcheck: https://hastebin.com/homawuhele.hs
2020-12-05 04:13:36 +0100heredoc(heredoc@2a01:7e01::f03c:91ff:fec1:de1d)
2020-12-05 04:13:43 +0100 <nfd9001> compile errors and source incl. there
2020-12-05 04:15:11 +0100 <nfd9001> (yeah, i shouldn't do so much prepro before megaparsec probably, but one thing at a time here)
2020-12-05 04:16:25 +0100 <solonarv> nfd9001: can you link where this permutations thing is from?
2020-12-05 04:17:04 +0100 <nfd9001> parser-combinators, Control.Applicative.Permutations
2020-12-05 04:17:14 +0100 <nfd9001> apparently used to be part of megaparsec prior to megaparsec 7
2020-12-05 04:17:19 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:17:56 +0100Nahra(~Nahra@unaffiliated/nahra) (Quit: leaving)
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2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100Noughtmare[m](naughtmare@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-euxykteztfgdzjor)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100betawaffle(sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-packykjqjjbpczgr)
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2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100PotatoGim(sid99505@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hlnasejbcjzegeqa)
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2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100ashnur(~rak@unaffiliated/ashnur)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100taktoa[c](sid282096@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-itxakgqwhnqkbebe)
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2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100kyagrd__(sid102627@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fmxliclmtnkycstb)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100ghuntley(sid16877@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qztbkgafmugcryxi)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100hyiltiz-M(hyiltizkde@gateway/shell/kde/matrix/x-zvgetfbstubrdqzf)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100_flow_(~none@salem.informatik.uni-erlangen.de)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100joeyh_(joeyh@kitenet.net)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100thonkpod(~thonkpod@2001:19f0:ac01:b46:5400:1ff:fec7:d73d)
2020-12-05 04:18:44 +0100opqdonut(opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi)
2020-12-05 04:21:01 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:22:06 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 04:22:59 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 04:23:56 +0100 <boxscape> I said earlier today that I wanted to use `compare `on` fst` to compare (String, Int) with (String, String) - turns out with ImpredicativeTypes you can actually define a function `on :: (b -> b -> c) -> (forall z . f a z -> b) -> f a d -> f a e -> c` which can do this, so that's nice
2020-12-05 04:25:15 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:34c4:973d:64b1:cdbd)
2020-12-05 04:26:02 +0100lolmac(sid171216@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hjcjaimdwehnhmlw) (Max SendQ exceeded)
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2020-12-05 04:27:20 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 04:28:17 +0100betawaffle(sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-packykjqjjbpczgr) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:28:20 +0100 <boxscape> (though of course there are situations where Data.Function.on works and this wouldn't, at least not without unsaturated tyfams
2020-12-05 04:28:22 +0100 <boxscape> )
2020-12-05 04:29:07 +0100betawaffle(sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nwsshpoaasjiiopc)
2020-12-05 04:29:20 +0100philopsos(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-12-05 04:29:37 +0100philopsos(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius)
2020-12-05 04:29:45 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:30:02 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:34c4:973d:64b1:cdbd) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:32:52 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> RankNTypes is enough for that
2020-12-05 04:33:12 +0100lagothrix(~lagothrix@unaffiliated/lagothrix) (Killed (barjavel.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
2020-12-05 04:33:18 +0100lagothrix(~lagothrix@unaffiliated/lagothrix)
2020-12-05 04:33:32 +0100 <boxscape> hm GHC told me it doesn't support impredicative types when I didn't enable it MarcelineVQ
2020-12-05 04:33:45 +0100theDon(~td@94.134.91.27) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:33:48 +0100perrier-jouet(~perrier-j@modemcable012.251-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-05 04:33:56 +0100 <boxscape> actually wait
2020-12-05 04:34:29 +0100 <nfd9001> impredicative sometimes causes weirder annotation requirements, yeah?
2020-12-05 04:34:35 +0100 <boxscape> MarcelineVQ fair enough, it was because the function body was `undefined`
2020-12-05 04:35:47 +0100Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas)
2020-12-05 04:35:53 +0100theDon(~td@muedsl-82-207-238-039.citykom.de)
2020-12-05 04:38:21 +0100 <nfd9001> love undefined. it's so polymorphic
2020-12-05 04:38:33 +0100 <boxscape> it sure is
2020-12-05 04:39:08 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 04:39:13 +0100AndreasK(uid320732@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmsetxbzackhcodn) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-05 04:39:14 +0100 <boxscape> % :t +v undefined
2020-12-05 04:39:14 +0100 <yahb> boxscape: forall (r :: RuntimeRep) (a :: TYPE r). GHC.Stack.Types.HasCallStack => a
2020-12-05 04:40:16 +0100 <solonarv> oh, it's representation-polymorphic? I was unaware of this!
2020-12-05 04:40:40 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 04:41:49 +0100 <boxscape> % const () $ I# undefined
2020-12-05 04:41:49 +0100 <yahb> boxscape: ()
2020-12-05 04:41:53 +0100 <boxscape> yeah
2020-12-05 04:43:54 +0100drbean(~drbean@TC210-63-209-40.static.apol.com.tw)
2020-12-05 04:44:09 +0100urek(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:a8d:9d56:f4b3:72da:42fc) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:45:15 +0100 <boxscape> perhaps somewhat confusingly, that also means that something like `undefined @Int` doesn't work
2020-12-05 04:45:28 +0100 <crestfallen> sorry I said something in error earlier: the first space would reach the predicate and fail, and would end up in the unused section of the string.
2020-12-05 04:45:28 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
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2020-12-05 04:57:25 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 04:57:43 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> hooray, I finished days 1 and 2 of AoC today!
2020-12-05 04:57:51 +0100 <jle`> ezzieyguywuf: congrats :D
2020-12-05 04:58:00 +0100 <jle`> just in time for the puzzle today :)
2020-12-05 04:58:24 +0100pjb(~t@2a01cb04063ec50041ee30a820ddb685.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr)
2020-12-05 04:59:15 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net)
2020-12-05 04:59:32 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 05:00:02 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:c8cc:c465:1d4b:5af7) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:00:17 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net)
2020-12-05 05:01:14 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> jle`: lol thanks.
2020-12-05 05:01:16 +0100Rudd0(~Rudd0@185.189.115.108)
2020-12-05 05:01:26 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> nah, I still need to do days 3 and 4 lol
2020-12-05 05:01:31 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> I want to do them in order *shrug*
2020-12-05 05:02:03 +0100 <boxscape> yeah the plot would be pretty confusing otherwise
2020-12-05 05:02:41 +0100st8less(~st8less@inet-167-224-197-181.isp.ozarksgo.net) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-05 05:03:45 +0100falafel(~falafel@pool-71-182-130-97.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:05:34 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.218.196) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:06:20 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:c8cc:c465:1d4b:5af7)
2020-12-05 05:09:14 +0100dave_uy(~david@108.61.193.26) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:09:19 +0100bcmiller(~bm3719@66.42.95.185) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:09:25 +0100byorgey(~byorgey@155.138.238.211) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2020-12-05 05:11:50 +0100TooDifficult_(~TooDiffic@103.122.14.27)
2020-12-05 05:13:04 +0100 <dsal> I only do AoC for the articles.
2020-12-05 05:13:30 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> a lot of recurssion in this AoC thingy
2020-12-05 05:13:35 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> well suited to haskell lol
2020-12-05 05:13:41 +0100 <dsal> Which one?
2020-12-05 05:13:46 +0100TooDifficult(~TooDiffic@139.59.59.230) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:13:46 +0100TooDifficult_TooDifficult
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2020-12-05 05:15:30 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 05:15:50 +0100ggole(~ggole@2001:8003:8119:7200:1d5:8df6:c4ab:d6ce)
2020-12-05 05:17:12 +0100xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:53f4:6600:356b:2da8:97c9:b5cf) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:17:19 +0100eedgit(~eedgit@95.179.237.21) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-12-05 05:17:39 +0100eedgit26(~chat.free@95.179.237.21)
2020-12-05 05:17:43 +0100eedgit(~eedgit@95.179.237.21)
2020-12-05 05:18:08 +0100xff0x_(~fox@2001:1a81:53f4:6600:b61f:e73a:b494:e067)
2020-12-05 05:19:22 +0100nfd9001(~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:20:37 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:20:41 +0100 <dsal> I've not done anything I'd call recursive in AoC so far this year. I guess you could call `fold` recursive, but that's more of an implementation detail.
2020-12-05 05:20:49 +0100fEst1ck(63fa6642@cpe64777d63d1c3-cm64777d63d1c0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
2020-12-05 05:21:11 +0100Wuzzy(~Wuzzy@p549c9976.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 05:21:38 +0100solonarv(~solonarv@astrasbourg-552-1-28-212.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:21:44 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> guess I'm not so fancy
2020-12-05 05:22:07 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> but I'm not trying to be elegant about it at all
2020-12-05 05:22:12 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> just hitting it with a huge hammer
2020-12-05 05:22:31 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 05:22:53 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:24:15 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:14eb:3996:42c8:f96b)
2020-12-05 05:24:19 +0100 <dsal> Heh, I do some of that. My day 1 was just a list comprehension.
2020-12-05 05:24:35 +0100conal_(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-05 05:25:01 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 05:25:06 +0100dave_uy(~david@108.61.193.26)
2020-12-05 05:25:22 +0100 <dsal> My day 2 is basically `count . filter`
2020-12-05 05:26:10 +0100bcmiller(~bm3719@66.42.95.185)
2020-12-05 05:26:15 +0100byorgey(~byorgey@155.138.238.211)
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2020-12-05 05:28:44 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> :b4
2020-12-05 05:28:47 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol whoops
2020-12-05 05:29:45 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> yussa beshep
2020-12-05 05:29:59 +0100rayyyy1(~nanoz@gateway/tor-sasl/nanoz)
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2020-12-05 05:32:55 +0100Feuermagier(~Feuermagi@213.178.26.41)
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2020-12-05 05:39:15 +0100crestfallen(~jvw@192-184-135-144.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: leaving)
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2020-12-05 05:43:35 +0100matryoshka`(~matryoshk@2606:6080:1002:8:3285:30e:de43:8809) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2020-12-05 05:44:18 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-05 05:44:20 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:14eb:3996:42c8:f96b)
2020-12-05 05:45:06 +0100matryoshka(~matryoshk@2606:6080:1002:8:3285:30e:de43:8809)
2020-12-05 05:45:28 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
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2020-12-05 05:48:42 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:14eb:3996:42c8:f96b) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 05:48:57 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-05 05:49:50 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:d98b:e839:e4b4:c855)
2020-12-05 05:50:07 +0100 <ephemient> @tell nfd9001 your problem appears to be operator precedence, *> and <$> are both infixl 4. try instead: string "byr:" *> (Just <$> L.decimal) etc.
2020-12-05 05:50:07 +0100 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
2020-12-05 05:50:11 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-05 05:50:15 +0100clever_(~clever@47.55.159.165)
2020-12-05 05:51:01 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
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2020-12-05 06:10:18 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> dang, couldn't get that 3rd one done today
2020-12-05 06:11:40 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> there's still time, if you keep flying left then today never ends
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2020-12-05 06:13:26 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com)
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2020-12-05 06:15:16 +0100Jonkimi727406120(~Jonkimi@223.213.165.31)
2020-12-05 06:15:31 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 06:15:53 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com)
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2020-12-05 06:17:01 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol
2020-12-05 06:17:01 +0100 <monochrom> Indeed, consider the first Christopher Reeve Superman movie. :)
2020-12-05 06:17:13 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 06:17:44 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 06:17:56 +0100 <dolio> You need to be really fast to do that.
2020-12-05 06:18:07 +0100 <dolio> Like, on the Concorde.
2020-12-05 06:18:17 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> no you just need to yell loud enough
2020-12-05 06:18:54 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> the speed thing is a, red, herring
2020-12-05 06:19:25 +0100Jonkimi727406120(~Jonkimi@223.213.165.31) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 06:19:30 +0100Ariakenom(~Ariakenom@h-98-128-229-53.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 06:19:34 +0100 <monochrom> Aww, none of you young ones know that Superman movie.
2020-12-05 06:19:37 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:d98b:e839:e4b4:c855) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 06:20:11 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> The one where he doesn't yell while turning back time
2020-12-05 06:20:21 +0100 <monochrom> heh OK
2020-12-05 06:20:46 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 06:20:47 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> Well I guess he has a chance to calm down first, in my mind he's screaming the whole time
2020-12-05 06:21:14 +0100 <Lycurgus> unubermenschlich
2020-12-05 06:21:31 +0100 <Lycurgus> (i.e. shouting)
2020-12-05 06:21:47 +0100 <Lycurgus> also funny there's a galactic year but no galactic day
2020-12-05 06:23:00 +0100mozzarella(~sam@unaffiliated/sam113101) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 06:23:03 +0100 <monochrom> OK, Dune is the one that weaponizes screaming. :)
2020-12-05 06:23:21 +0100 <Lycurgus> ah, the voice aint screamin
2020-12-05 06:23:26 +0100 <Lycurgus> the opposite in fact
2020-12-05 06:24:03 +0100 <dolio> I think they meant the movie.
2020-12-05 06:24:04 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> moad'ib's a hellova dug
2020-12-05 06:24:09 +0100 <dolio> Where you kill people by yelling into a megaphone.
2020-12-05 06:24:22 +0100 <Lycurgus> more like bucks dog whistles
2020-12-05 06:24:24 +0100 <dolio> Yelling gun.
2020-12-05 06:24:48 +0100 <Lycurgus> from which the libral press make so many hard inferences
2020-12-05 06:25:19 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> dune weaponizes patrick stewart in a rubber suit
2020-12-05 06:25:26 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 06:25:28 +0100 <monochrom> :)
2020-12-05 06:26:11 +0100 <dolio> Because David Lynch thought yelling guns were less dumb than martial arts.
2020-12-05 06:26:33 +0100 <Lycurgus> also the wierding modules used sound but it wasn't a or the voice
2020-12-05 06:26:51 +0100 <Lycurgus> using them the fremen did sorta shout
2020-12-05 06:28:58 +0100suppi(~suppi@172.246.241.246) (Quit: ZNC 1.6.2+deb2+precise1 - http://znc.in)
2020-12-05 06:30:10 +0100 <Lycurgus> also lynch, the drehbuch only used herberts elements
2020-12-05 06:30:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 06:31:37 +0100 <boxscape> @pl \map -> bimap (map (== 'B')) (map (== 'R'))
2020-12-05 06:31:37 +0100 <lambdabot> liftM2 bimap ($ ('B' ==)) ($ ('R' ==))
2020-12-05 06:31:43 +0100 <boxscape> hm maybe not
2020-12-05 06:32:44 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> where did map go
2020-12-05 06:32:58 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.181.85)
2020-12-05 06:33:14 +0100 <boxscape> into the pointless aether
2020-12-05 06:34:36 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com) (Quit: Exeunt)
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2020-12-05 06:36:05 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> Oh, it does check out, I put on strong glasses and lost my marbles in neverland for a moment
2020-12-05 06:36:24 +0100BlackCapCoder(~blackcap@48.80-203-23.nextgentel.com)
2020-12-05 06:36:35 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> I wonnder how obscure that reference is
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2020-12-05 07:17:23 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 07:22:44 +0100 <boxscape> is there a class for contravariant bifunctors?
2020-12-05 07:23:14 +0100 <boxscape> I suppose optics-core hass Bicontravariant
2020-12-05 07:23:19 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@216.186.218.241)
2020-12-05 07:23:19 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@216.186.218.241) (Changing host)
2020-12-05 07:23:19 +0100justsomeguy(~justsomeg@unaffiliated/--/x-3805311)
2020-12-05 07:28:09 +0100 <koz_> How can one be contravariant in _both_ parameters?
2020-12-05 07:28:15 +0100 <koz_> Are there any natural examples?
2020-12-05 07:33:07 +0100Saukk(~Saukk@2001:998:f9:2914:1c59:9bb5:b94c:4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 07:34:34 +0100 <boxscape> koz_ (a -> b -> c) is contravariant an a and b
2020-12-05 07:35:30 +0100 <koz_> So that'd be equivalent to like 'newtype Op2 c a b = Op2 (a -> b -> c)' by the same logic as contravariant's Op I guess.
2020-12-05 07:35:30 +0100 <boxscape> I suppose so is (Either a b -> c), for example
2020-12-05 07:35:41 +0100 <boxscape> yeah
2020-12-05 07:35:47 +0100 <koz_> Either a b -> c is an interesting example as well.
2020-12-05 07:36:13 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 07:37:44 +0100 <koz_> a -> b -> c is actually isomorphic to (a, b) -> c.
2020-12-05 07:37:51 +0100 <boxscape> right
2020-12-05 07:38:00 +0100 <koz_> So you have 'function with sum argument' and 'function with product argument' as the two natural examples.
2020-12-05 07:38:01 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:14d8:6d19:75e:5ab6)
2020-12-05 07:39:25 +0100 <boxscape> more generally if p is a Bifunctor, p a b -> c will be contravariant in a and b
2020-12-05 07:39:27 +0100 <boxscape> I think
2020-12-05 07:39:50 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 07:40:09 +0100 <koz_> I'm not sure that works - how would you derive bicontramap?
2020-12-05 07:40:18 +0100 <boxscape> hm let me try
2020-12-05 07:42:12 +0100Seran1(~Seran@185.103.96.147)
2020-12-05 07:43:31 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2020-12-05 07:44:21 +0100 <boxscape> koz_ https://paste.tomsmeding.com/l1ydTX0M
2020-12-05 07:44:22 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 07:45:04 +0100 <koz_> Oh, clever.
2020-12-05 07:45:14 +0100 <boxscape> no, just following the typed holes :)
2020-12-05 07:45:25 +0100 <koz_> That alone gets you surprisingly far in Haskell.
2020-12-05 07:45:29 +0100 <boxscape> yeah
2020-12-05 07:46:41 +0100mozzarella(~sam@unaffiliated/sam113101)
2020-12-05 07:47:22 +0100 <koz_> Is there a Bidivisible and Bidecidable too?
2020-12-05 07:47:54 +0100 <boxscape> hm good question
2020-12-05 07:48:11 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8) (Quit: Connection closed)
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2020-12-05 07:48:21 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
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2020-12-05 07:53:52 +0100 <koz_> Also, what does optics-core use Bicontravariant to define?
2020-12-05 07:56:32 +0100 <koz_> Ah, Forget and IxForget.
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2020-12-05 09:34:43 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
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2020-12-05 09:37:49 +0100cads(~cads@ip-64-72-99-232.lasvegas.net)
2020-12-05 09:38:29 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:75bf:479b:dfe7:5b22)
2020-12-05 09:39:44 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-49-142-114-9-241.dsl.bell.ca)
2020-12-05 09:42:27 +0100Seran1(~Seran@185.103.96.147) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 09:43:05 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:9cbf:b7c7:d239:3bce) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 09:43:14 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:75bf:479b:dfe7:5b22) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 09:48:34 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 09:50:39 +0100xchg(~xchg@185.204.1.185)
2020-12-05 09:53:10 +0100hackage(mniip@haskell/bot/hackage) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 09:53:15 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 09:53:46 +0100hackage(mniip@haskell/bot/hackage)
2020-12-05 09:57:12 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 09:57:36 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 09:59:12 +0100BlackCapCoder(~blackcap@48.80-203-23.nextgentel.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 10:00:05 +0100wanaks[m](wanaksmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ncjfiyoyfwrxhjmq) (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2020-12-05 10:00:05 +0100jlv(jlvjustinl@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vewvewaygwmdkitl) (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2020-12-05 10:00:05 +0100miseenplace[m](miseenplac@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vdkkkdwfftjmtktj) (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2020-12-05 10:04:49 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 10:07:04 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7885:705f:3052:55bc)
2020-12-05 10:09:04 +0100thunderrd(~thunderrd@183.182.110.8) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 10:10:08 +0100thunderrd(~thunderrd@183.182.110.8)
2020-12-05 10:12:02 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:7885:705f:3052:55bc) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 10:12:43 +0100Sayless(~seiless@85.203.34.15) (Quit: Lost terminal)
2020-12-05 10:15:09 +0100fendor(~fendor@178.115.130.110.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
2020-12-05 10:15:47 +0100Tuplanolla(~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
2020-12-05 10:17:25 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 10:17:54 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 10:18:30 +0100mputz(~Thunderbi@dslb-088-064-063-125.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-12-05 10:18:48 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@mx-ll-171.5.167-167.dynamic.3bb.co.th)
2020-12-05 10:19:36 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 10:24:38 +0100tromp_(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2020-12-05 10:24:38 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 10:27:16 +0100raichoo(~raichoo@dslb-188-100-006-110.188.100.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-12-05 10:33:25 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 10:38:59 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 10:39:19 +0100hnOsmium0001(uid453710@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-npckdfwtcapekmuw) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-05 10:40:19 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-05 10:42:24 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 10:43:09 +0100bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b806c00200d8b1b8e14fac996e.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-05 10:43:23 +0100bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b806c00200d8b1b8e14fac996e.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 10:45:47 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 10:46:27 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 10:46:58 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 10:51:16 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:6927:9b85:a79a:dc5e)
2020-12-05 10:54:01 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.181.215) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 10:55:50 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:6927:9b85:a79a:dc5e) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 10:55:56 +0100timCF(~i.tkachuk@m91-129-106-3.cust.tele2.ee) (Quit: leaving)
2020-12-05 10:56:35 +0100olligobber1(~olligobbe@unaffiliated/olligobber)
2020-12-05 10:57:48 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:290d:2f1:3d80:4086)
2020-12-05 10:58:26 +0100clever_(~clever@47.55.159.165) (Changing host)
2020-12-05 10:58:26 +0100clever_(~clever@NixOS/user/clever)
2020-12-05 10:58:28 +0100clever_clever
2020-12-05 11:00:01 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 11:01:34 +0100Vulfe_(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:9088:700a:5bf0:5bb6)
2020-12-05 11:02:26 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:290d:2f1:3d80:4086) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:02:54 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 11:03:00 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 11:03:19 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 11:03:57 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@73.174.9.109.rev.sfr.net)
2020-12-05 11:05:19 +0100acowley(~acowley@c-68-83-22-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 11:05:58 +0100xiinotulp(~q@ppp-27-55-83-236.revip3.asianet.co.th)
2020-12-05 11:06:02 +0100Vulfe_(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:9088:700a:5bf0:5bb6) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:06:28 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
2020-12-05 11:08:34 +0100acowley(~acowley@c-68-83-22-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 11:09:10 +0100jedws(~jedws@121.209.181.215)
2020-12-05 11:09:33 +0100plutoniix(~q@ppp-49-237-20-89.revip6.asianet.co.th) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:10:33 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 11:11:34 +0100urek(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:a8d:9d56:f4b3:72da:42fc)
2020-12-05 11:18:28 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-05 11:18:32 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29)
2020-12-05 11:20:31 +0100clever_(~clever@142.68.197.85)
2020-12-05 11:20:53 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:21:40 +0100clever_(~clever@142.68.197.85) (Changing host)
2020-12-05 11:21:40 +0100clever_(~clever@NixOS/user/clever)
2020-12-05 11:21:55 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 11:21:56 +0100clever(~clever@NixOS/user/clever) (Disconnected by services)
2020-12-05 11:22:06 +0100clever_clever
2020-12-05 11:22:44 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 11:23:46 +0100boxscape8(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 11:25:56 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net)
2020-12-05 11:27:04 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:27:05 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:27:26 +0100mananamenos(~mananamen@vpn236-24.vpns.upv.es)
2020-12-05 11:28:18 +0100jluttine(~jluttine@87-95-146-110.bb.dnainternet.fi)
2020-12-05 11:28:24 +0100boxscape8boxscape
2020-12-05 11:31:10 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:32:23 +0100xiinotulp(~q@ppp-27-55-83-236.revip3.asianet.co.th) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-05 11:33:17 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@mx-ll-171.5.167-167.dynamic.3bb.co.th) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 11:36:00 +0100Lord_of_Life_Lord_of_Life
2020-12-05 11:36:11 +0100nowhere_man(~pierre@91-175-29-131.subs.proxad.net)
2020-12-05 11:37:57 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c7fd300885d9bfffe93502e.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-05 11:37:57 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c7fd300885d9bfffe93502e.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 11:38:13 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4CB.versanet.de)
2020-12-05 11:38:41 +0100ph88(~ph88@2a02:8109:9e00:7e5c:cb1:a2e:bc62:aff6)
2020-12-05 11:41:48 +0100mbomba(~mbomba@bras-base-toroon2719w-grc-49-142-114-9-241.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2020-12-05 11:43:39 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 11:43:56 +0100gehmehgeh(~ircuser1@gateway/tor-sasl/gehmehgeh)
2020-12-05 11:47:16 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:c416:eb6b:963d:a119)
2020-12-05 11:47:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 11:48:30 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:52:00 +0100nfd9001(~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 11:52:05 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:53:36 +0100royal_screwup21(52254809@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.37.72.9)
2020-12-05 11:54:08 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 11:55:38 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-05 11:56:28 +0100mastarija(~mastarija@93-136-140-159.adsl.net.t-com.hr)
2020-12-05 11:56:45 +0100AndreasK(uid320732@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sicmejfaufzfmqid)
2020-12-05 11:58:05 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-12-05 11:58:09 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 11:58:25 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 11:59:08 +0100 <mastarija> Is there any vim plugin for haskell that only uses GHCi for error checking, completion, type and docs? Something like this VSCode extension: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=dramforever.vscode-ghc-simple
2020-12-05 11:59:12 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:3de3:148f:b7c9:fdb7)
2020-12-05 11:59:31 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-12-05 11:59:58 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 12:02:36 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4CB.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:03:28 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4CB.versanet.de)
2020-12-05 12:03:38 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:3de3:148f:b7c9:fdb7) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:03:43 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 12:03:55 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 12:03:58 +0100AlterEgo-(~ladew@124-198-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl)
2020-12-05 12:08:15 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c719ff04c483db69aedba2cb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-12-05 12:08:40 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:1401:c674:6b13:1188)
2020-12-05 12:09:50 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:c416:eb6b:963d:a119) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2020-12-05 12:09:53 +0100Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras)
2020-12-05 12:10:55 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 12:11:58 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@2403:6200:8876:a985:6507:1c52:205b:26de)
2020-12-05 12:13:13 +0100dhouthoo(~dhouthoo@ptr-eitgbj2w0uu6delkbrh.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be)
2020-12-05 12:13:50 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:1401:c674:6b13:1188) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:16:50 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@2403:6200:8876:a985:6507:1c52:205b:26de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:17:29 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:54a4:d693:d718:efc8)
2020-12-05 12:22:14 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:54a4:d693:d718:efc8) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:22:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 12:22:46 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@cst-prg-99-198.cust.vodafone.cz)
2020-12-05 12:23:13 +0100darjeeling_(~darjeelin@122.245.218.196)
2020-12-05 12:23:14 +0100__monty__(~toonn@unaffiliated/toonn)
2020-12-05 12:23:41 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:c416:eb6b:963d:a119)
2020-12-05 12:23:55 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 12:24:33 +0100carlomagno1(~cararell@148.87.23.6)
2020-12-05 12:25:41 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@cst-prg-99-198.cust.vodafone.cz) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 12:26:02 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@cst-prg-99-198.cust.vodafone.cz)
2020-12-05 12:26:08 +0100carlomagno(~cararell@148.87.23.11) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:26:12 +0100jollygood2(~bc8165ab@217.29.117.252)
2020-12-05 12:26:44 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 12:27:02 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29)
2020-12-05 12:27:18 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 12:29:32 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:30:53 +0100 <jollygood2> hi. is there already a function like this? https://pastebin.com/Hw0M7rEc
2020-12-05 12:31:40 +0100mimagic(~mimagic@201.82.37.29) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:32:03 +0100 <jollygood2> also, I'm not sure how to, without making a complete mess of the function, pick first element in the original list if count of elements is the same, instead of always picking the one that is first after sorting
2020-12-05 12:32:42 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@cst-prg-99-198.cust.vodafone.cz) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:34:40 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@2403:6200:8876:a9cd:d01b:63a8:de53:5983)
2020-12-05 12:36:12 +0100Varis(~Tadas@unaffiliated/varis)
2020-12-05 12:37:18 +0100fxg(~fxg@unaffiliated/fxg) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:37:19 +0100aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net) (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net)
2020-12-05 12:38:37 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:c416:eb6b:963d:a119) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2020-12-05 12:38:47 +0100 <jollygood2> compilable example: https://pastebin.com/6nTUuHAh
2020-12-05 12:39:43 +0100aplainzetakind(~johndoe@captainludd.powered.by.lunarbnc.net)
2020-12-05 12:42:11 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 12:43:53 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net)
2020-12-05 12:45:34 +0100philopsos(~caecilius@gateway/tor-sasl/caecilius) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 12:46:25 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:47:16 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4CB.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:48:16 +0100joaoh82(~joaoh82@ip-213-127-88-241.ip.prioritytelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:48:27 +0100bbfish(~bbfish@36.46.19.132)
2020-12-05 12:51:19 +0100bbfish(~bbfish@36.46.19.132) ("Leaving")
2020-12-05 12:52:13 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8) (Quit: Connection closed)
2020-12-05 12:52:59 +0100doct0rhu(~orctarorg@pool-72-88-158-154.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:53:31 +0100hackageuniqueness-periods-vector-stats 0.2.0.0 - A very basic descriptive statistics. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-stats-0.2.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-12-05 12:54:33 +0100aib(~aib@unaffiliated/aib42) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 12:54:41 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 12:54:50 +0100raoul9(~raoulhida@nomnomnomnom.co.uk)
2020-12-05 12:54:56 +0100sheaf(~sheaf@2a01:cb19:80cc:7e00:ade8:1e5b:84e9:86db)
2020-12-05 12:55:09 +0100dftxbs3e(~dftxbs3e@unaffiliated/dftxbs3e) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 12:55:48 +0100mcginleyr1_(uid475794@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmepugnonanirpgl)
2020-12-05 12:55:56 +0100aib(~aib@unaffiliated/aib42)
2020-12-05 12:56:22 +0100fxg(~fxg@unaffiliated/fxg)
2020-12-05 12:56:36 +0100urek__(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:a8d:9d56:f4b3:72da:42fc)
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2020-12-05 13:04:31 +0100hackageuniqueness-periods-vector-stats 0.2.1.0 - A very basic descriptive statistics. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/uniqueness-periods-vector-stats-0.2.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-12-05 13:05:45 +0100 <xerox_> mastarija: https://github.com/neoclide/coc.nvim
2020-12-05 13:06:03 +0100 <xerox_> together with https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server
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2020-12-05 13:06:31 +0100 <mastarija> Yes, but I don't want language server, I want something that works with just my stock GHCi
2020-12-05 13:06:50 +0100 <mastarija> Like that vscode extension :D
2020-12-05 13:06:58 +0100 <xerox_> I use this but it doesn't integrate with vim https://github.com/ndmitchell/ghcid
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2020-12-05 13:07:08 +0100 <xerox_> well, maybe it can, but in my setup it doesn't (:
2020-12-05 13:07:09 +0100 <mastarija> yes, me too
2020-12-05 13:07:23 +0100 <mastarija> Right now I just have it in separate terminal window
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2020-12-05 13:08:42 +0100 <xerox_> I use tmux and split the terminal in three, vim, ghcid, repl
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2020-12-05 13:15:05 +0100 <merijn> mastarija: Which VS Code extension? afaik *everything* in VS Code use language server
2020-12-05 13:15:18 +0100 <merijn> mastarija: Considering VS Code is the project that invented LSP
2020-12-05 13:15:28 +0100 <xerox_> linked up there called vscode-ghc-simple
2020-12-05 13:15:37 +0100 <mastarija> https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=dramforever.vscode-ghc-simple
2020-12-05 13:16:13 +0100 <merijn> xerox_: ghcide (not ghcid) works pretty will vim's LSP plugins like ALE
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2020-12-05 13:16:46 +0100 <xerox_> I'm happy with ghcid really
2020-12-05 13:17:04 +0100 <merijn> ghcid is ok, but it's slow as hell
2020-12-05 13:17:10 +0100 <merijn> Since it just runs "cabal build"
2020-12-05 13:17:10 +0100 <xerox_> maybe would like it to restart if I change the cabal file, but that's it
2020-12-05 13:17:25 +0100 <xerox_> I don't work on very big programs anyway :)
2020-12-05 13:17:48 +0100 <merijn> That's fine if your full build is fast, but for my bigger code bases even rebuilding half can sometimes take a few minutes. ghcide is much more responsive there
2020-12-05 13:17:52 +0100 <mastarija> xerox_, me too. I usually setup a makefile which tells ghcid to restart on certain file changes.
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2020-12-05 13:18:05 +0100 <xerox_> mastarija: that's not a make feature tho is it?
2020-12-05 13:18:12 +0100 <mastarija> xerox_, nope
2020-12-05 13:18:30 +0100 <mastarija> xerox_, I just create a command which basically calls ghcid with some flags
2020-12-05 13:18:32 +0100 <xerox_> I guess there are a bunch of inotify/whatever tools one can use for that
2020-12-05 13:18:42 +0100jamm_(~jamm@unaffiliated/jamm)
2020-12-05 13:18:57 +0100 <mastarija> sure, but ghcid is capable of that anyway
2020-12-05 13:19:07 +0100 <xerox_> it is?!
2020-12-05 13:19:25 +0100 <mastarija> yes, it has basic file watching capabilities
2020-12-05 13:19:38 +0100 <xerox_> aah I thought I missed the addition of restart-when-cabal-changes
2020-12-05 13:19:54 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.181.85)
2020-12-05 13:20:00 +0100 <mastarija> we are talking about the cabal file, no?
2020-12-05 13:20:03 +0100 <xerox_> yes
2020-12-05 13:20:05 +0100dhil(~dhil@195.213.192.34)
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2020-12-05 13:20:22 +0100 <mastarija> yes, you can tell him to watch for changes in .cabal and then restart
2020-12-05 13:20:55 +0100 <merijn> xerox_: Eh, the filewatching stuff in ghcid has been around for a few years :p
2020-12-05 13:21:01 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it)
2020-12-05 13:21:15 +0100 <xerox_> I had no idea! --restart=foo.cabal
2020-12-05 13:21:21 +0100 <xerox_> I'm set for another decade then
2020-12-05 13:21:28 +0100 <mastarija> hehe
2020-12-05 13:21:38 +0100 <xerox_> thank you ^_^
2020-12-05 13:21:47 +0100 <mastarija> you can add multiple files of course, I think it's comma separated
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2020-12-05 14:02:47 +0100 <cads> hey all, having some problems with ghcup - anything I could do to get these gears unstuck? https://gist.github.com/maxsu/8870e338c6b8f48ec8740776acd3ee1f
2020-12-05 14:03:16 +0100cadsconsiders sticking their hand in there
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2020-12-05 14:20:21 +0100 <cads> I feel like ghcup should do these things: 1. install ghc and cabal to ~/.ghcup 2. put ~/.ghcup on the path 3. Configure cabal to install to the .ghcup directory. 4. Fade away into the background
2020-12-05 14:21:14 +0100 <merijn> I feel like it definitely shouldn't do 2 >.>
2020-12-05 14:21:20 +0100 <merijn> Not convinced about 3 either, tbh
2020-12-05 14:21:28 +0100 <cads> #3 & 4 beg the question of whether it should be the .ghcup folder, and how much of this does cabal already do
2020-12-05 14:23:11 +0100 <cads> merijn, I'm comparing with go and rust. Its curl-installers create .go and .cargo directories in the home directories, and puts the bin directories on the path
2020-12-05 14:23:37 +0100 <merijn> Tools should never change the user's environment without explicit instruction. If other tools do that, those tools are wrong
2020-12-05 14:24:01 +0100 <merijn> For one, there's literally no way for tools to robustly change your path
2020-12-05 14:25:33 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:3475:6e74:80f7:d0b3) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 14:25:34 +0100 <merijn> I'm sure there's plenty of *bad* tools that do stuff like "edit the user's profile", which is 1) bad, 2) depends on you reliably identifying what the user's profile is, 3) still isn't sure to work and may in fact mess up the user's profile/environmeent
2020-12-05 14:25:58 +0100 <cads> I wouldn't imply it should do so without user approval - what I've seen is that some installers will offer to modify .bashrc (works in 99% of cases)
2020-12-05 14:27:30 +0100 <merijn> afaik ghcup already tells you what to do to setup your path
2020-12-05 14:27:43 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:9d91:6177:2c4d:3bca)
2020-12-05 14:30:55 +0100 <cads> hmm, I have been downloading manually and putting it where I wanted it to be
2020-12-05 14:32:13 +0100 <cads> hmm, for that matter, it looks like curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh is not working at the moment
2020-12-05 14:35:57 +0100 <cads> not really similar to my earlier error, but maybe the ghcup server is acting up
2020-12-05 14:36:39 +0100catchme(uid355354@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hxmidzshauhjcqia)
2020-12-05 14:37:30 +0100dxld(~dxld@rush.pub.dxld.at) (Quit: Bye)
2020-12-05 14:39:02 +0100 <geekosaur> you might pop over to #haskell-infrastructure and ask about it
2020-12-05 14:39:02 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-plus 0.1.1.0 - Some common shared between different packages functions. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-plus-0.1.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-12-05 14:39:31 +0100 <geekosaur> sadly neither status.haskell.org nor webmon currently monitors the ghcup service
2020-12-05 14:40:40 +0100dxld(~dxld@rush.pub.dxld.at)
2020-12-05 14:43:11 +0100 <merijn> Doesn't it just grab stuff from gitlab?
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2020-12-05 14:43:24 +0100fxg(~fxg@unaffiliated/fxg) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 14:43:42 +0100 <cads> prolly
2020-12-05 14:43:57 +0100 <geekosaur> gitlab shows as up. but I think the metadata's separate from gitlab. the taralls come from gitab but nothing else I suspect
2020-12-05 14:44:18 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131)
2020-12-05 14:44:32 +0100 <geekosaur> and the metadtaa's what's failing. (well, that and reportedly the curl|sh ick)
2020-12-05 14:44:33 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it)
2020-12-05 14:44:41 +0100 <dminuoso> geekosaur: gitlab showing as up is arguably just a blatant lie.
2020-12-05 14:44:53 +0100 <dminuoso> gitlab can easily show as up on any given metric and be completely broken
2020-12-05 14:45:06 +0100 <geekosaur> there is that
2020-12-05 14:45:39 +0100 <cads> is there some other script that I can run in a generic unix environment with a hope and a prayer that I'll end up with working ghc and cabal on my path?
2020-12-05 14:46:12 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 14:46:14 +0100 <dminuoso> tar
2020-12-05 14:46:16 +0100 <dminuoso> :)
2020-12-05 14:46:46 +0100 <dminuoso> We have bindists you can just untar and install.
2020-12-05 14:47:06 +0100 <cads> for ghc, which one should I use?
2020-12-05 14:47:40 +0100 <dminuoso> Which system are you on?
2020-12-05 14:48:07 +0100 <dminuoso> At any rate
2020-12-05 14:48:09 +0100 <dminuoso> https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html#binaries
2020-12-05 14:48:11 +0100 <cads> at https://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_8_10_2.html#linux_x86_64 we have bin dists for 12 linux distributions (if we include windows)
2020-12-05 14:48:19 +0100 <cads> but no generic package
2020-12-05 14:49:01 +0100 <dminuoso> Well ghcup is that generic thing.
2020-12-05 14:49:21 +0100 <dminuoso> It genreally works, what error are you getting?
2020-12-05 14:50:40 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 14:51:31 +0100 <merijn> cads: What does "generic package" mean?
2020-12-05 14:51:50 +0100 <merijn> cads: GHC depends on several libraries, those distro names just indicate which library versions they use
2020-12-05 14:51:56 +0100 <merijn> (and thus are compatible with)
2020-12-05 14:52:21 +0100 <merijn> It's impossible to make a "generic" bindist, because there is no universally installed version of things like libffi and libgmp
2020-12-05 14:52:43 +0100 <dminuoso> Well, there sort of is if you just have a tarballed nix closure...
2020-12-05 14:52:53 +0100 <dminuoso> Just needs a linux kernel :>
2020-12-05 14:53:07 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: Even then you depend on glibc, unless you're using musl in your nix closure
2020-12-05 14:53:25 +0100 <dminuoso> merijn: Not an external glibc.
2020-12-05 14:53:26 +0100jmchael(~Chi1thang@87.112.60.168)
2020-12-05 14:53:30 +0100 <nshepperd2> just include your own glibc :)
2020-12-05 14:53:32 +0100 <dminuoso> glibc would be included in the nix closure
2020-12-05 14:53:33 +0100 <cads> merijn, if someone was offering to pay you, and the goal was to cover 95% of business relevant use cases, I think the word impossible would leave the conversation
2020-12-05 14:53:45 +0100 <cads> but I'm not gonna offer to pay you
2020-12-05 14:53:52 +0100 <merijn> cads: Right, which is why it doesn't exist
2020-12-05 14:53:57 +0100 <dminuoso> merijn: its sort of the point for nix closures to have anything they need
2020-12-05 14:54:04 +0100 <dminuoso> aside from the linux kernel
2020-12-05 14:54:13 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 14:54:36 +0100 <merijn> cads: Actually, even then it is
2020-12-05 14:54:55 +0100 <merijn> cads: Because it depends on the exact requirements people have of a "generic" version
2020-12-05 14:55:24 +0100 <srk> can you statically link ghc?
2020-12-05 14:55:28 +0100 <merijn> Sure, you can do what dminuoso says and ship a Nix closure or something, but most people expect their compiler to work with *their* C compiler and to be able to use the C libraries *they* install
2020-12-05 14:55:50 +0100 <merijn> srk: Statically linking GHC isn't the problem
2020-12-05 14:56:04 +0100 <merijn> srk: The problem is that the RTS system depends on GMP and glibc (on linux, anyway)
2020-12-05 14:56:22 +0100 <srk> hmm, I see
2020-12-05 14:56:24 +0100 <merijn> srk: So if you're gonna ship your own glibc (as dminuoso mentioned) then the RTS will be linked against that
2020-12-05 14:57:00 +0100 <merijn> srk: So now you build your own libraries locally with your own C compiler and you gotta just cross your fingers the glibc *they* use is compatible with the glibc the RTS uses, else GHC will just generate broken executables
2020-12-05 14:57:00 +0100 <srk> looks like it is a thing .. https://github.com/redneb/ghc-alt-libc/releases
2020-12-05 14:57:14 +0100 <srk> makes sense
2020-12-05 14:57:39 +0100 <merijn> srk: Sure, but that means you gotta build all your *other* stuff also with musl. Which is not what the average user/developer expects/wants to deal with
2020-12-05 14:58:04 +0100 <srk> yup :)
2020-12-05 14:58:50 +0100 <merijn> and certainly not what people would expect of a "generic release"
2020-12-05 15:00:05 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 15:01:24 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@73.174.9.109.rev.sfr.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:02:00 +0100 <dminuoso> And if its supposed to produce static builds, that will cause other issues
2020-12-05 15:02:01 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2020-12-05 15:02:06 +0100 <cads> node js has an installer, and no longer recommends users to use their distribution packages
2020-12-05 15:02:26 +0100mouseghost(~draco@wikipedia/desperek)
2020-12-05 15:02:30 +0100 <merijn> JS packages also can't link against native code
2020-12-05 15:02:41 +0100 <dminuoso> merijn: thats not entirely true
2020-12-05 15:02:41 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.181.85) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 15:02:43 +0100 <cads> not an excuse
2020-12-05 15:02:46 +0100 <merijn> Which basically eliminates all these problems by simply not letting you do that
2020-12-05 15:02:48 +0100 <cads> python.. just checked.. is so ubiquitous that it doesn't even have installation packages for linux
2020-12-05 15:02:55 +0100LKoen(~LKoen@73.174.9.109.rev.sfr.net)
2020-12-05 15:03:06 +0100 <merijn> Like, what exactly, is this discussion trying to accomplish?
2020-12-05 15:03:09 +0100toorevitimirp(~tooreviti@117.182.181.85)
2020-12-05 15:03:35 +0100jollygood2(~bc8165ab@217.29.117.252) (Quit: http://www.okay.uz/)
2020-12-05 15:03:53 +0100 <cads> get you to admit that ghc install is needlessly hard and brainstorm ways to improve it?
2020-12-05 15:03:54 +0100jollygood2(~bc8165ab@217.29.117.252)
2020-12-05 15:04:01 +0100 <dminuoso> Its not a GHC problem.
2020-12-05 15:04:17 +0100 <merijn> "Languages with several million, possibly billions, of dollars of manpower invested in them by multinational and thousands of volunteers have managed to solve some problems by throwing endless manpower at manually fixing all the corner cases"
2020-12-05 15:04:22 +0100 <merijn> ok, sure, that's true
2020-12-05 15:04:24 +0100 <dminuoso> Haskell produces native binaries, that's for *your* convenience
2020-12-05 15:04:26 +0100 <merijn> But that's not very helpful
2020-12-05 15:04:38 +0100 <merijn> cads: You can't install a generic GCC either
2020-12-05 15:04:38 +0100 <dminuoso> But because it produces native binaries, that means we need a compiler, a linker, and libraries
2020-12-05 15:05:44 +0100 <dminuoso> Well actually we dont even need a compiler if the -fasm backend is chosen, which is evne by default
2020-12-05 15:05:46 +0100 <cads> merijn, if we're admitting that the difference in outcomes is due to the huge difference in installed base and sheer economic dependency on the systems, I'll admit that makes me feel less frustrated and confused
2020-12-05 15:05:49 +0100 <dminuoso> but a linker we're not gonna build.
2020-12-05 15:05:52 +0100 <merijn> cads: Solving this packaging problem in GHC is easy. Just eliminate the dependency on libc and libgmp in the RTS
2020-12-05 15:06:41 +0100britva(~britva@31-10-157-156.cgn.dynamic.upc.ch) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2020-12-05 15:06:41 +0100 <merijn> cads: So "all" you need to do is implement all libc functionality in the RTS by implementing it directly using syscalls on all supported platforms
2020-12-05 15:07:03 +0100Neo--(~neo@188-230-138-83.dynamic.t-2.net)
2020-12-05 15:07:14 +0100 <merijn> cads: Which, btw, is exactly how Go handles this. They use syscalls directly, which means they had to reimplement everything in the RTS for each OS
2020-12-05 15:07:25 +0100 <geekosaur> we only need a compiler for FFI stubs. -fllvm needs LLVM utils. -fvia-C vanished a decade ago
2020-12-05 15:07:27 +0100 <merijn> cads: Can that be done? Sure, just look at go.
2020-12-05 15:07:30 +0100 <cads> I was gonna ask how rust and go do it
2020-12-05 15:08:00 +0100 <merijn> cads: But we're talking hundreds, if not thousands, of man hours to do so and at the end the only benefit is "improved installation process by 0.5%" (if that much)
2020-12-05 15:08:04 +0100 <cads> merijn, you saying we could take what go/rust do and port it over to get a similar experience? because I've installed rust and go about 2 dozen times and each time it was smooth as butter
2020-12-05 15:08:22 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Have you even figured out what your problem is?
2020-12-05 15:08:28 +0100 <dminuoso> In my experience ghcup works like butter too
2020-12-05 15:08:38 +0100 <cads> but I've /tried/ to install ghc perhaps a dozen times over the last decade and each time I bonk on something dumb
2020-12-05 15:08:42 +0100 <merijn> cads: Rust and Go were, from the beginning, designed with this in mind, which meant they could gradually invest the engineering
2020-12-05 15:08:49 +0100acidjnk_new(~acidjnk@p200300d0c719ff043467fd7c213734d3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
2020-12-05 15:08:51 +0100 <dminuoso> You know. Apart from "Corporate firewall hijacked the TLS traffic", "Apple is broken again, refusing to install xcode"
2020-12-05 15:09:23 +0100 <merijn> cads: The point is that the engineering effort required to improve from the status quo is enormous and is much better spend on other things.
2020-12-05 15:09:27 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, I'm gonna wait a day and hope ghcup works - it looks for all the world like the remote server is hung
2020-12-05 15:09:40 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: did you get any error message?
2020-12-05 15:09:53 +0100 <merijn> cads: Also, is there no GHC and cabal package for your distro (unless it's Arch, then definitely don't use those...)
2020-12-05 15:10:08 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, see here https://gist.github.com/maxsu/8870e338c6b8f48ec8740776acd3ee1f
2020-12-05 15:10:58 +0100 <__monty__> Hmm, can I prevent IO actions from outputting anything when using criterion's nfIO?
2020-12-05 15:11:09 +0100 <sm[m]> not to derail this interesting chat but as a practical tip cads: an easy generic way to get Haskell tools on a unix system is to download and run the stack installer (a bash script)
2020-12-05 15:11:10 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b8f3:ef0:2eb2:2607)
2020-12-05 15:11:12 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, when I tried to pull the yaml file from a browser I got nothing- I'll try it again. Before this ghcup has 'just worked'
2020-12-05 15:11:17 +0100 <dminuoso> __monty__: dup2 stdout?
2020-12-05 15:11:38 +0100 <dminuoso> __monty__: Im not sure whether that'd work right in Haskell tho
2020-12-05 15:12:25 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:9d91:6177:2c4d:3bca) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:12:34 +0100 <merijn> dminuoso: It does
2020-12-05 15:12:36 +0100pavonia(~user@unaffiliated/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
2020-12-05 15:12:40 +0100 <merijn> I actually have example code somewhere
2020-12-05 15:12:57 +0100noan(~noan@2604:a880:400:d0::12fc:5001) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2020-12-05 15:12:57 +0100DigitalKiwi(~kiwi@unaffiliated/digitalkiwi) (Quit: quite.)
2020-12-05 15:13:27 +0100noan(~noan@2604:a880:400:d0::12fc:5001)
2020-12-05 15:13:34 +0100 <merijn> ah, wait, did I get rid of it?
2020-12-05 15:13:47 +0100 <cads> merijn, there's a fun situation in alpine: i) there's an alpine package on the GHC page but it's for alpine 2.10 (2 minor versions old) ii) alpine's package repo has ghc 8.8.2 (also 2 minor versions old)
2020-12-05 15:14:34 +0100 <merijn> cads: 8.8 is one minor version old and also "so?"
2020-12-05 15:14:47 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Mmm, shouldnt you have to install a ghc first?
2020-12-05 15:15:05 +0100 <dminuoso> The error is strnage tho
2020-12-05 15:15:05 +0100jess(jess@freenode/staff/jess)
2020-12-05 15:15:06 +0100 <merijn> Odds of needing the very latest GHC are roughly 0 unless you're trying to use some bleeding edge feature in the newest GHC
2020-12-05 15:15:23 +0100DigitalKiwi(~kiwi@unaffiliated/digitalkiwi)
2020-12-05 15:16:02 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b8f3:ef0:2eb2:2607) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:17:23 +0100 <cads> merijn, wait, you think it's safe to run 2 minor versions behind (current is 8.10)? okay, I'll try it! In the past I was used to debian stable ghc being so far behind that most packages wouldn't compile
2020-12-05 15:17:27 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:40c9:5e0b:6e01:acee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:17:34 +0100 <merijn> cads: Odd minor versions are development only
2020-12-05 15:17:41 +0100 <merijn> 8.10 is the first release after 8.8
2020-12-05 15:17:48 +0100 <cads> ah
2020-12-05 15:18:08 +0100 <merijn> Also, I frequently run 3-4 releases behind if I get too lazy about updating
2020-12-05 15:18:10 +0100 <dminuoso> 8.6.5 is still a fine compiler.
2020-12-05 15:18:30 +0100 <merijn> I only updated from 8.6 to 8.10 because I needed a new feature in 8.10
2020-12-05 15:19:14 +0100 <dminuoso> Only reason I update GHC is because.. well I use the nixos "stable" GHC, so whenver that gets updated I get it too...
2020-12-05 15:19:20 +0100 <merijn> cads: It's a compiler, not a network facing service. Unless you're actively hitting some bug or needing a new feature there's no real reason too avoid older versions (well, at some point they become so old it's impractical because libraries don't support them)
2020-12-05 15:19:45 +0100 <dminuoso> From experience, things rarely go noticeably faster in newer releases. :>
2020-12-05 15:19:55 +0100 <merijn> But honestly anything >8.0 will probably be sufficiently supported
2020-12-05 15:20:34 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: But yeah, Ive looked at the code path and its a real wart that it doesn't report what exception is being thrown
2020-12-05 15:20:52 +0100 <cads> merijn, the issue I always found was that ordinary packages would use some ghc feature that would break debian stable's GHC, and I'd have to go off on a tangent buolding new ghc
2020-12-05 15:21:18 +0100 <cads> ghcup for me means an end in sight to this
2020-12-05 15:21:23 +0100 <cads> for instance, debian buster is running ghc 8.4.4, which I wouldn't trust
2020-12-05 15:21:49 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Can you run `curl https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/data/ghcup-0.0.4.yaml`?
2020-12-05 15:21:58 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, no, that fails
2020-12-05 15:22:01 +0100 <cads> you?
2020-12-05 15:22:02 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Whats the error?
2020-12-05 15:22:08 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: works for me
2020-12-05 15:22:08 +0100 <cads> it just hangs
2020-12-05 15:22:17 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Do you have a vpn enabled?
2020-12-05 15:22:24 +0100 <dminuoso> Or sit behind a company firewall?
2020-12-05 15:22:38 +0100 <dminuoso> Can you run a traceroute towards the IP behind that domain?
2020-12-05 15:22:55 +0100 <cads> gimme a line, I'll run it
2020-12-05 15:23:13 +0100 <srk> apt-get -y install nix
2020-12-05 15:23:24 +0100srkruns
2020-12-05 15:23:36 +0100 <cads> srk, lol
2020-12-05 15:23:39 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:40c9:5e0b:6e01:acee)
2020-12-05 15:24:04 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Can you reach this website? https://gitlab.haskell.org/haskell/ghcup-hs/-/blob/master/ghcup-0.0.4.yaml
2020-12-05 15:25:01 +0100clynamen_(~clynamen@37.183.22.31)
2020-12-05 15:25:03 +0100clynamen(~clynamen@37.183.22.31) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:25:07 +0100 <cads> hmm, strange, I can curl https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghcup/x86_64-linux-ghcup
2020-12-05 15:25:12 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, yep
2020-12-05 15:25:41 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Can you reach www.haskell.org at all?
2020-12-05 15:26:15 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, yes, as I just mentioned, I can download the ghcup binary. I can also navigate the main site.
2020-12-05 15:26:21 +0100 <dminuoso> that's really strange
2020-12-05 15:27:19 +0100 <cads> I'm thinking of resetting my network stack and rebooting to see if that unsticks it - I really want this to be a problem on my side and not ghcup's side
2020-12-05 15:27:25 +0100 <dminuoso> I dont think it will
2020-12-05 15:27:35 +0100 <dminuoso> so its possible this is behind a cdn
2020-12-05 15:27:44 +0100Gurkenglas(~Gurkengla@unaffiliated/gurkenglas) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:27:49 +0100 <dminuoso> Im not familiar with the setup here
2020-12-05 15:27:57 +0100 <dminuoso> but its definitely a network bug
2020-12-05 15:28:09 +0100 <cads> almost certainly I'm hitting some kind of stale cdn, and you're probably hitting a live one
2020-12-05 15:28:14 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:40c9:5e0b:6e01:acee) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:28:15 +0100 <dminuoso> yeah
2020-12-05 15:28:27 +0100mouseghost(~draco@wikipedia/desperek) (Quit: mew wew)
2020-12-05 15:28:35 +0100 <dminuoso> #haskell-infrastructure is the right place like geekosaur suggested earlier
2020-12-05 15:29:08 +0100 <cads> yeah, I'll mosey on by and raise the issue and see if I can pledge some kind of support to improve the infrastructure here
2020-12-05 15:29:53 +0100coot(~coot@37.30.53.191.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) (Quit: coot)
2020-12-05 15:32:03 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:33:01 +0100hackageukrainian-phonetics-basic 0.4.0.0 - A library to work with the basic Ukrainian phonetics and syllable segmentation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ukrainian-phonetics-basic-0.4.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-12-05 15:33:13 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131)
2020-12-05 15:35:23 +0100urodna(~urodna@unaffiliated/urodna)
2020-12-05 15:35:23 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:35:24 +0100mputz(~Thunderbi@dslb-088-064-063-125.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:36:09 +0100 <tomsmeding> I've made this ( https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/perfstats ) two days ago; it seems clear what the slow pages are :)
2020-12-05 15:36:18 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131)
2020-12-05 15:38:30 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:39:04 +0100 <sm[m]> tomsmeding++
2020-12-05 15:39:17 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131)
2020-12-05 15:39:18 +0100 <tomsmeding> also first time working with blaze, seems a fine DSL
2020-12-05 15:40:41 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, and wouldn't you know it, the service started working just as soon as I started drafting my outage report!
2020-12-05 15:40:56 +0100fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Quit: fuzzypixelz)
2020-12-05 15:41:08 +0100 <tomsmeding> cads: service optimises for maximum annoyance
2020-12-05 15:43:20 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:43:48 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:40c9:5e0b:6e01:acee)
2020-12-05 15:44:17 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131)
2020-12-05 15:44:31 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@212.102.45.112)
2020-12-05 15:44:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:47:18 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 15:47:36 +0100machinedgod(~machinedg@135-23-192-217.cpe.pppoe.ca)
2020-12-05 15:47:53 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b8645b9f009ba1d43461655289.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:48:14 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131)
2020-12-05 15:48:22 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:40c9:5e0b:6e01:acee) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:48:49 +0100 <cads> merijn, I lucked out with the fact that the alpine ghc package is very fresh - so I could have installed that rather than wait for ghcup to get working. What ghcup does is it detects alpine linux then downloads hasufell's ghc-8.8.4-x86_64-alpine-linux.tar.xz and haskell.org's cabal-install-3.2.0.0-x86_64-alpine-linux-musl.tar.xz
2020-12-05 15:50:17 +0100geekosaur(ac3a5454@172.58.84.84) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 15:50:47 +0100jneira(02896aa1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.2.137.106.161) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 15:51:32 +0100dhouthoo(~dhouthoo@ptr-eitgbj2w0uu6delkbrh.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-05 15:51:47 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it) (Quit: cosimone)
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2020-12-05 15:53:31 +0100hackageukrainian-phonetics-basic 0.4.1.0 - A library to work with the basic Ukrainian phonetics and syllable segmentation. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ukrainian-phonetics-basic-0.4.1.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-12-05 16:11:44 +0100caef^(caef@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net) ()
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2020-12-05 16:24:21 +0100 <cads> is there a haskell editor that achieves any level of code folding?
2020-12-05 16:24:50 +0100 <cads> lol, it is hard to search for code folding in context of haskell because you get a million articles on foldr
2020-12-05 16:25:00 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 16:25:00 +0100 <texasmynsted> like the folding in vim?
2020-12-05 16:25:06 +0100 <texasmynsted> or something else?
2020-12-05 16:25:52 +0100elfets(~elfets@ip-37-201-23-96.hsi13.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 16:26:07 +0100 <texasmynsted> full disclosure: I do not use the code folding in vim or other editors. I find it annoying
2020-12-05 16:26:20 +0100 <cads> I've also seen it referred to as outlining or collapsing or nesting code
2020-12-05 16:27:02 +0100 <texasmynsted> I think both common editors have it, vim and emacs.
2020-12-05 16:27:04 +0100 <cads> where you hide the lines inside methods, leaving only declarations - I use it when reading new code
2020-12-05 16:27:35 +0100 <cads> it looks like the intelli-J plugin has it, and so does emacs haskell mode. but vs code haskell plugins seem to be missing it
2020-12-05 16:28:14 +0100 <texasmynsted> but vs code can use neovim as its "editor"
2020-12-05 16:28:26 +0100halbGefressen(~christian@2a02:810d:f40:2a9c:a4fe:2adc:248b:466f) (Quit: halbGefressen)
2020-12-05 16:28:35 +0100 <texasmynsted> Much of the power of neovim, inside vs code
2020-12-05 16:29:05 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 16:29:08 +0100 <cads> texasmynsted, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing - in vs code, folding means that blocks of code get decorated with vs-code buttons that let you collapse them
2020-12-05 16:29:09 +0100 <texasmynsted> Also there is vscodium, if you want to use vs code but turn off the telemetery and other spying
2020-12-05 16:29:21 +0100 <texasmynsted> cads, yes
2020-12-05 16:29:24 +0100 <texasmynsted> same thing
2020-12-05 16:30:05 +0100 <cads> so the neovim plugin takes the code folding points that neovim computes for a given file, and sends them vscode?
2020-12-05 16:30:14 +0100 <texasmynsted> I have not tried it for haskell, but I _think_ you can fold away the body of a code block
2020-12-05 16:30:16 +0100danvet(~Daniel@2a02:168:57f4:0:efd0:b9e5:5ae6:c2fa)
2020-12-05 16:30:40 +0100 <cads> lemme try it. Do I have to do anything special to get haskell mode for neovim?
2020-12-05 16:31:03 +0100 <texasmynsted> cads: No. The neovim plugin makes vscode work like neovim. You can use many of the neovim features and plugins, directly
2020-12-05 16:31:04 +0100mputz(~Thunderbi@dslb-088-064-063-125.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 16:31:22 +0100 <texasmynsted> I think that code folding is built-in if I recall correctly.
2020-12-05 16:31:42 +0100 <texasmynsted> cads, yes.
2020-12-05 16:31:56 +0100 <jollygood2> is there a function like this already available? https://pastebin.com/Jt2Wfj3N
2020-12-05 16:32:00 +0100 <texasmynsted> I have a bunch of haskell plugins in neovim
2020-12-05 16:33:01 +0100Lycurgus(~niemand@cpe-45-46-137-210.buffalo.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 16:34:13 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@2403:6200:8876:a9cd:d01b:63a8:de53:5983) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 16:34:32 +0100 <texasmynsted> cads I would look at this --> https://github.com/twinside/vim-haskellfold
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2020-12-05 16:35:10 +0100 <texasmynsted> Here are screen-shots http://twinside.github.io/vim-haskellFold/
2020-12-05 16:35:17 +0100Kaivo(~Kaivo@104-200-86-99.mc.derytele.com)
2020-12-05 16:36:34 +0100 <texasmynsted> maybe somebody that uses folding will help you better
2020-12-05 16:36:35 +0100 <cads> that's defintiely what I want visually, and I'm understanding that it should, for example, integrate with the vscode code folding shortcut
2020-12-05 16:37:08 +0100 <texasmynsted> I am actually sorry that I suggested the neovim plugin.
2020-12-05 16:37:33 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@mx-ll-171.5.29-209.dynamic.3bb.co.th)
2020-12-05 16:37:53 +0100 <texasmynsted> I suggested it because I use it when in vscode. You will likely be better served trying to solve this without that.
2020-12-05 16:38:13 +0100 <texasmynsted> likely one or more of the vscode haskell plugins has folding. I have no idea
2020-12-05 16:38:53 +0100 <cads> my current understanding is that I can drop vim-hasellfold in the .vim/plugin directory of the neovim plugin. Then vscode will display code folding widgets in hsakell files. Lol, I am also not that gullible, so I actually expect this will be fraught with peril and misery
2020-12-05 16:40:06 +0100 <cads> texasmynsted, I have installed 3 of the plugins and reviewed the feature lists of all the plugins, there were none to indicate the term folding. So apart from manually installing all of the plugins and checking to see if I get magic folding widgets...
2020-12-05 16:40:25 +0100 <texasmynsted> hmm.
2020-12-05 16:40:40 +0100 <cads> ... well, probably you're right and the best idea is to find someone who uses folding (or use the intellij lugin in pycharm)
2020-12-05 16:41:23 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 16:42:12 +0100justanotheruser(~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser)
2020-12-05 16:42:47 +0100tintinthong(3c35076a@60.53.7.106)
2020-12-05 16:44:53 +0100justinthong(~justintho@2001:e68:5442:b278:7500:bc76:587e:7a58)
2020-12-05 16:44:54 +0100u0_a298(~user@65.35.205.131) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 16:44:58 +0100 <justinthong> hi there
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2020-12-05 16:45:35 +0100 <sm[m]> cads: I see folding buttons in vs code + haskell extension.. are they not hooked up to standard keybindings ?
2020-12-05 16:46:08 +0100 <sm[m]> (only when I mouse over the gutter)
2020-12-05 16:46:16 +0100 <cads> https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/8268-haskell-conceal ooo this nice. Haskell concealer. With a sheer, matte finish.
2020-12-05 16:46:44 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:69cb:4c40:655a:5f75) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-12-05 16:47:20 +0100 <sm[m]> also, is there any sign of haskell-language-server support in jetbrains IDEs yet ?
2020-12-05 16:47:31 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 16:49:32 +0100 <cads> I feel like there was a haskell contributor death event in 2016. Like half of of the haskell projects I encounter were last committed to in 2016 or there abouts. To wit: https://plugins.jetbrains.com/search?search=haskell
2020-12-05 16:50:22 +0100 <cads> that might be unfair, since one of those is just an announcement (also 4 aren't really about haskell)
2020-12-05 16:50:53 +0100 <Rembane> Too much oxygen in the Haskell sea killed off the Cambric explosion
2020-12-05 16:51:04 +0100dxld(~dxld@rush.pub.dxld.at) (Quit: Bye)
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2020-12-05 16:55:53 +0100 <cads> sm[m], current intelli-J plugin doesn't appear to be https://github.com/rikvdkleij/intellij-haskell
2020-12-05 16:56:42 +0100softwarm(4408f588@ip68-8-245-136.sd.sd.cox.net)
2020-12-05 16:57:19 +0100cole-h(~cole-h@c-73-48-197-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 16:57:30 +0100 <cads> the next most popular haskell plugin has half as many downloads (50k). It builds a server abstraction, but it's not the language server protocol / it doesn't seem to pull in haskell language server
2020-12-05 16:58:07 +0100 <cads> sm[m], if a project were using haskell language server, what is a string that would have to show up?
2020-12-05 16:58:08 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 16:58:20 +0100 <cads> (somewhere in the project's code)
2020-12-05 17:00:15 +0100o1lo01ol1o(~o1lo01ol1@bl11-140-216.dsl.telepac.pt)
2020-12-05 17:00:28 +0100 <cads> sm[m], I have found the code folding feature in the vscode plugin! thanks for confirming it existed!
2020-12-05 17:00:55 +0100softwarm(4408f588@ip68-8-245-136.sd.sd.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2020-12-05 17:01:51 +0100 <texasmynsted> cads: so how does it work? Does it do what you want?
2020-12-05 17:02:04 +0100raehik(~raehik@cpc95906-rdng25-2-0-cust156.15-3.cable.virginm.net)
2020-12-05 17:02:12 +0100 <texasmynsted> Would be cool to see a couple of screen-shots
2020-12-05 17:02:19 +0100 <cads> it doesn't fold what I wanted it to fold, but it folds enough that it's helpful
2020-12-05 17:02:43 +0100 <cads> I was hoping it would fold long import lists, but it folds everything else I wanted it to
2020-12-05 17:03:31 +0100hackagewai-extra 3.1.4 - Provides some basic WAI handlers and middleware. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-extra-3.1.4 (MichaelSnoyman)
2020-12-05 17:03:41 +0100 <sm[m]> cads, np. haskell-language-server, hls would be some likely strings but it's too new/too much in flux to find that way. I asked rikvdkleij about his plan re hls but he didn't seem to have any
2020-12-05 17:04:58 +0100 <texasmynsted> cads maybe that plugin has some way to define manual fold points? So you can fold down your imports, etc. http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/options.html#'foldmarker'
2020-12-05 17:05:12 +0100Vulfe_(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:69cb:4c40:655a:5f75) (Remote host closed the connection)
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2020-12-05 17:06:33 +0100 <cads> texasmynsted, regarding what I wanted to do, basically without naming names, many haskell projects seems to it's okay to have files with 40 to 60 lines of imports and compiler directives, followed by 500 lines of function after function
2020-12-05 17:07:29 +0100 <texasmynsted> Heh. Sounds like the code I am working on at the moment and completely my fault.
2020-12-05 17:07:40 +0100Tops21(~Tobias@dyndsl-091-249-083-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
2020-12-05 17:07:41 +0100 <cads> to work in this kind of file without losing my slippery grasp on sanity, I like to fold anything whose implementation I don't currently care about
2020-12-05 17:08:20 +0100 <texasmynsted> One of my files has more than 70 lines of imports
2020-12-05 17:09:01 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-simplified-common 0.4.0.0 - A simplified version of the phonetic-languages-functionality https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-simplified-common-0.4.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-12-05 17:09:24 +0100 <texasmynsted> Was looking yesterday for something to "fix" my imports. I think actually a better fix for now is splitting out to many more modules.
2020-12-05 17:09:33 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@mx-ll-171.5.29-209.dynamic.3bb.co.th) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 17:09:36 +0100cadsgrabs texasmynsted's lapels and insists the madness must end
2020-12-05 17:09:54 +0100DavidEichmann(~david@62.110.198.146.dyn.plus.net)
2020-12-05 17:09:58 +0100 <cads> a memo must be drafted. A standard drawn. I am convinced that these kinds of imports make code that nobody wants to maintain
2020-12-05 17:09:59 +0100 <texasmynsted> lol
2020-12-05 17:10:02 +0100Tops22(~Tobias@dyndsl-091-249-083-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
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2020-12-05 17:10:28 +0100 <texasmynsted> I agree with you
2020-12-05 17:10:46 +0100 <cads> but in the meantime, I think I could extend the folding code for the haskell plugin
2020-12-05 17:11:04 +0100 <texasmynsted> I think normally you can manually fold
2020-12-05 17:11:14 +0100Tops2(~Tobias@dyndsl-091-249-083-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 17:11:17 +0100 <texasmynsted> Like make a selection and fold it away.
2020-12-05 17:11:19 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b8f3:ef0:2eb2:2607)
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2020-12-05 17:17:46 +0100tomsmeding. o O ( 'zf' in vim )
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2020-12-05 17:23:59 +0100 <cads> texasmynsted, in sublime text, yes. In vs-code, users been mewling incessantly for this feature for over two and a half years. https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/18805
2020-12-05 17:24:05 +0100 <cads> poor babies :(
2020-12-05 17:24:35 +0100cawfee(chiya@2406:3003:2077:2341::babe)
2020-12-05 17:24:39 +0100 <cads> I could be their messiah.
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2020-12-05 17:33:59 +0100xerox_(~xerox@unaffiliated/xerox)
2020-12-05 17:34:28 +0100blankhart(~blankhart@c-71-232-98-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 17:34:31 +0100hackageicepeak 0.7.4.0 - A fast JSON document store with push notification support. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/icepeak-0.7.4.0 (rkrzr)
2020-12-05 17:35:24 +0100borne(~fritjof@200116b8645b9f009ba1d43461655289.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-05 17:36:42 +0100blankhart(~blankhart@c-71-232-98-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 17:37:07 +0100hekkaidekapus{(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
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2020-12-05 17:37:40 +0100 <sm[m]> cads: I'd like to see UX improvements there too, but do you have a huge monitor or something ? In practice I am usually scrolled elsewhere, focussed on a small section of code and have to jump/search to even see imports
2020-12-05 17:39:02 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net)
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2020-12-05 17:42:09 +0100 <cads> no, I just expect my files to be about 60 lines, so when I open a file and I see 60 lines of imports, I gotta make that go away or I'll like kill someone
2020-12-05 17:42:35 +0100juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65)
2020-12-05 17:43:28 +0100 <cads> like I'll grab the knife, and find the first unpaid intern, say "GUAHAHAHAAH" and then slit their throat from ear to ear. And that will be very unfortunate. Because in my oranization I am the unpaid intern (also psychopathic ceo)
2020-12-05 17:43:50 +0100z0k(~user@115.186.169.31)
2020-12-05 17:43:52 +0100 <jollygood2> is there a Data.Set and Data.Map equivalent that keeps track of inserting order?
2020-12-05 17:43:54 +0100 <cads> so I really need to make those imports go away
2020-12-05 17:45:01 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-simplified-properties-lists-double 0.1.0.0 - A generalization of the uniqueness-periods-vector-properties package. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-simplified-properties-lists-double-0.1.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
2020-12-05 17:47:15 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 17:47:35 +0100 <sm[m]> that's.. pretty violent
2020-12-05 17:47:40 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd)
2020-12-05 17:47:44 +0100Kaivo(~Kaivo@104-200-86-99.mc.derytele.com) (Quit: switching to wifi)
2020-12-05 17:48:09 +0100renzhi(~renzhi@2607:fa49:655f:e600::28da)
2020-12-05 17:48:46 +0100 <cads> in my organization, code readability is a life and death matter
2020-12-05 17:48:48 +0100Kaivo(~Kaivo@104-200-86-99.mc.derytele.com)
2020-12-05 17:48:56 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 17:49:12 +0100dxld(~dxld@rush.pub.dxld.at) (Quit: Bye)
2020-12-05 17:50:40 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 17:51:37 +0100dxld(~dxld@rush.pub.dxld.at)
2020-12-05 17:51:51 +0100 <pja> jollygood2: Data.Map.Ordered
2020-12-05 17:52:07 +0100 <pja> From ordered-containers
2020-12-05 17:54:39 +0100 <jollygood2> thanks.
2020-12-05 17:55:42 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 17:55:59 +0100 <cads> this is one example of the input bloat I mention: https://gist.github.com/maxsu/fc0ada60f478bc89e3b71b8e54cc389d
2020-12-05 17:56:28 +0100 <cads> this lives at the top of a 1500 line haskell file that does... a lot
2020-12-05 17:57:12 +0100fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Quit: fuzzypixelz)
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2020-12-05 17:58:22 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd)
2020-12-05 17:58:50 +0100 <cads> I think the haskellish way to to deal with this is that every file has a similarly long imports list because factoring it away into a custom prelude for your project is not scalable as the project structure evolves
2020-12-05 17:59:01 +0100 <cads> but is that strictly true?
2020-12-05 17:59:08 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 18:00:21 +0100 <srk> lazily true ;)
2020-12-05 18:00:31 +0100 <cads> hehe
2020-12-05 18:00:37 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 18:01:09 +0100 <srk> you don't need to commit to full custom prelude, you can have parts of the program import modules that reexport common things
2020-12-05 18:01:43 +0100 <cads> any example of a project that does this to good effect in your opinion?
2020-12-05 18:02:12 +0100plakband(~plakband@softbank126074182017.bbtec.net)
2020-12-05 18:02:21 +0100 <cads> I feel reluctant to name examples of projects that I feel make this mistake (but oh boy, they're out there)
2020-12-05 18:02:51 +0100 <srk> not sure tbh
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2020-12-05 18:08:31 +0100hackagephonetic-languages-simplified-lists-examples 0.5.0.0 - Simplified and somewhat optimized version of the phonetic-languages-examples. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/phonetic-languages-simplified-lists-examples-0.5.0.0 (OleksandrZhabenko)
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2020-12-05 18:31:54 +0100 <tomsmeding> cads: ircbrowse does this (e.g. https://github.com/tomsmeding/ircbrowse/blob/master/src/Ircbrowse/View.hs ), but I'm not sure whether I can call it "to good effect"
2020-12-05 18:33:01 +0100 <tomsmeding> but then, I prefer it when I can manually trace where stuff comes from most of the time (while I like my editor to tell me that, I'd like to not need it), so I'm personally biased against this batched import thing :p
2020-12-05 18:35:01 +0100 <cads> yeah, I dont like it either tbh, just thinking of how to shorten this list: https://gist.github.com/maxsu/c43447994735e61f5a5b52a49ecd1d56
2020-12-05 18:35:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> that indentation is messed up though around the CPP macros
2020-12-05 18:36:00 +0100 <tomsmeding> but I guess my answer would be "don't", but that doesn't help you :p
2020-12-05 18:36:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> to me, having lots of imports just signifies that it might be helpful to split up the file into distinct bits of functionality, and nothing else; also, with emphasis on "might"
2020-12-05 18:36:52 +0100andreas303(~andreas@gateway/tor-sasl/andreas303) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 18:37:19 +0100 <tomsmeding> custom prelude / batched imports just allow you to act like the problem isn't there :p
2020-12-05 18:38:24 +0100rcdilorenzo(~rcdiloren@cpe-76-182-87-188.nc.res.rr.com)
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2020-12-05 18:38:55 +0100rcdilorenzo(~rcdiloren@cpe-76-182-87-188.nc.res.rr.com)
2020-12-05 18:39:54 +0100andreas303(~andreas@gateway/tor-sasl/andreas303)
2020-12-05 18:40:47 +0100opweiqw(~opweiqw@2604:880:50:5f:63:0:f0:1)
2020-12-05 18:41:00 +0100 <cads> for lines 34-44 I think I would like to be able to import multiple submodules of a parent module, like from Data import Bifunctor, Char, Either, Functor, List (intercalate, sort) -- and so on. Multiple invocations would be fine, but we're reducing the number of import declarations by 4 or 5 while arguably maintaining or enhancing readability
2020-12-05 18:41:46 +0100 <geekosaur> there is no module named Data, though
2020-12-05 18:42:01 +0100 <geekosaur> it's just namespace.
2020-12-05 18:43:04 +0100 <geekosaur> (and I think ghc still has an oddity where it sometimes accepts filenames with dots in them in place of slashes? but only for modules within your program, not from external packages)
2020-12-05 18:45:25 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210)
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2020-12-05 19:04:14 +0100cawfee(chiya@2406:3003:2077:2341::babe) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 19:05:57 +0100 <monochrom> In fact "submodule" is a wrong model.
2020-12-05 19:06:51 +0100tromp_(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 19:06:52 +0100 <monochrom> The correct model is fancy naming convention that pretends to be hierarchical.
2020-12-05 19:07:23 +0100tromp(~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl)
2020-12-05 19:07:55 +0100hekkaidekapus{(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus) (Quit: hekkaidekapus{)
2020-12-05 19:09:07 +0100hekkaidekapus(~tchouri@gateway/tor-sasl/hekkaidekapus)
2020-12-05 19:11:26 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> dang, so Data.Functior.Alt ((<|>)) is different from Control.Applicative?!
2020-12-05 19:11:47 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> nvm, it's a ! I think
2020-12-05 19:11:48 +0100britva(~britva@2a02:aa13:7240:2980:c416:eb6b:963d:a119) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2020-12-05 19:11:54 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol, I get it, "semi"
2020-12-05 19:12:24 +0100 <monochrom> Where does Data.Functor.Alt come from?
2020-12-05 19:13:28 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> monochrom: semigroupoids package
2020-12-05 19:14:07 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> I imagine it's something that's some sub-set of an Alternative or w/e, but this type of stuff is mostly over my head
2020-12-05 19:14:28 +0100heatsink(~heatsink@2600:1700:bef1:5e10:b8f3:ef0:2eb2:2607) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 19:14:59 +0100hexfive(~hexfive@50-47-142-195.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net) (Quit: i must go. my people need me.)
2020-12-05 19:15:01 +0100 <monochrom> me too
2020-12-05 19:15:29 +0100urek__(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:a8d:a85d:6d9e:3db:9450)
2020-12-05 19:16:23 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210) ()
2020-12-05 19:18:04 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:69cb:4c40:655a:5f75) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 19:18:37 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> i love that with haskell I've never had to worry about a linker error
2020-12-05 19:18:41 +0100Tops22(~Tobias@dyndsl-091-249-083-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
2020-12-05 19:18:47 +0100urek(~urek@2804:7f1:e10a:a8d:a85d:6d9e:3db:9450) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 19:19:15 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:69cb:4c40:655a:5f75)
2020-12-05 19:19:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> ezzieyguywuf: wait until you use external libraries
2020-12-05 19:19:45 +0100 <geekosaur> you haven't, at least
2020-12-05 19:19:51 +0100bcasiello(~brian@071-088-110-201.res.spectrum.com) ("Leaving")
2020-12-05 19:20:25 +0100tsrt^(tsrt@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net) ()
2020-12-05 19:21:39 +0100 <tomsmeding> whois oleks
2020-12-05 19:21:45 +0100 <tomsmeding> ............. sorry
2020-12-05 19:22:31 +0100 <sm[m]> ezzieyguywuf: you must be new here :)
2020-12-05 19:22:51 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol, and now I did something silly and it used up all my ram when I ran it
2020-12-05 19:23:03 +0100 <tomsmeding> welcome to haskell
2020-12-05 19:23:03 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> tomsmeding: I've used some a tad, for like opengl i think
2020-12-05 19:23:09 +0100mputz(~Thunderbi@dslb-088-064-063-125.088.064.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
2020-12-05 19:23:10 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:69cb:4c40:655a:5f75) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 19:23:17 +0100Vulfe(~vulfe@2600:1702:31b0:34e0:69cb:4c40:655a:5f75)
2020-12-05 19:23:54 +0100 <sm[m]> quite a lot of haskell apps & libs involve some C
2020-12-05 19:23:58 +0100nehsou^(nehsou@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net)
2020-12-05 19:24:19 +0100 <sm[m]> hackage should have a Pure Haskell badge
2020-12-05 19:24:46 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> glad I caught it before I ran out of ram, lol
2020-12-05 19:25:01 +0100hackagewitch 0.0.0.4 - Convert values from one type into another. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/witch-0.0.0.4 (fozworth)
2020-12-05 19:25:16 +0100 <zincy__> Is the only way to get impurity in Haskell to use performUnsafeIO ?
2020-12-05 19:25:17 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> at first I was like "ghcid, why aren't you saying anything?" then I was like "shrug, maybe a glitch" <ctrl-c> cabal run jali
2020-12-05 19:25:22 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> then like 30 secs later I thought to check ram, lol
2020-12-05 19:26:34 +0100 <geekosaur> zincy__, that and its relatives
2020-12-05 19:26:54 +0100 <zincy__> Cheers
2020-12-05 19:26:55 +0100chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 19:27:17 +0100 <geekosaur> (inlinePerformIO comes to mind: "sharing an address space with a malevolent agent of chaos")
2020-12-05 19:27:21 +0100chkno(~chkno@75-7-2-127.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
2020-12-05 19:27:30 +0100 <sm[m]> ezzieyguywuf: on Mac, I keep activity monitor open and a memory usage meter in menubar :/
2020-12-05 19:27:51 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol, wise
2020-12-05 19:28:55 +0100cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd)
2020-12-05 19:29:14 +0100 <sm[m]> since with Firefox and Haskell you can easily freeze a 8G laptop
2020-12-05 19:29:38 +0100 <tomjaguarpaw> Oh man, tell me about it. I have a 4GB laptop ...
2020-12-05 19:29:48 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 19:29:52 +0100 <sm[m]> ouch
2020-12-05 19:30:27 +0100foobarblob(188838c2@ip24-136-56-194.ga.at.cox.net)
2020-12-05 19:30:28 +0100 <tomjaguarpaw> I quite like "ionice -c idle nice -n 20", and "MEM=$[1000 * 1000]; ulimit -d $MEM; ulimit -m $MEM; ulimit -v $MEM" when I want to be drastic.
2020-12-05 19:30:52 +0100ezzieyguywufhugs 16 gigs
2020-12-05 19:31:03 +0100cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 19:31:44 +0100sm[m]takes notes
2020-12-05 19:32:05 +0100cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd)
2020-12-05 19:33:36 +0100tomjaguarpawhugs script for spinning up Linode when he wants to do anything serious
2020-12-05 19:33:38 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> and ff doesn't really use that much memory anymore honestly...
2020-12-05 19:33:40 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> at least not for me.
2020-12-05 19:33:48 +0100ezzieyguywufwonders what linode is
2020-12-05 19:33:51 +0100ezzieyguywufdoesn't do anything serious.
2020-12-05 19:34:18 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> lol, I had a runaway ghc from vim's coc that I missed
2020-12-05 19:34:21 +0100drincruz_(~adriancru@ool-44c748be.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-12-05 19:34:29 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> I got up to 1.9G swap!
2020-12-05 19:34:30 +0100 <tomjaguarpaw> Currently using 12% of main memory, but can easily be up to 25%, and I have different FF instances for different purposes, to minimise tracking, risk of malware ...
2020-12-05 19:34:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 19:34:40 +0100nf(~n@monade.li) (Quit: Fairfarren.)
2020-12-05 19:34:50 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> but now mem usage is back at a very reasonable 692M
2020-12-05 19:35:01 +0100cosimone(~user@2001:b07:ae5:db26:d849:743b:370b:b3cd) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 19:35:02 +0100hackagegroup-theory 0.1.0.0 - The theory of groups https://hackage.haskell.org/package/group-theory-0.1.0.0 (topos)
2020-12-05 19:35:08 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ah, I have two tabs open, both hackage.
2020-12-05 19:35:13 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> though I can have as much as 10-20
2020-12-05 19:35:14 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb)
2020-12-05 19:35:57 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> ah, ignore that mem number, ofc I hav the 1.9GB swapped right now I think that's mostly ff
2020-12-05 19:37:32 +0100zyklotomic(~ethan@unaffiliated/chocopuff)
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2020-12-05 19:40:36 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> does NonEmpty List have a way to specify at least 2 elements?
2020-12-05 19:40:49 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> or would I have to wrap it in a datatype that had two non-empty's?
2020-12-05 19:40:58 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> or I gues a singleton and a non-empty..
2020-12-05 19:41:14 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> nvm, guess I'll just do that
2020-12-05 19:41:59 +0100cawfee(chiya@2406:3003:2077:2341::babe)
2020-12-05 19:42:16 +0100oaoats
2020-12-05 19:42:35 +0100 <dminuoso> ezzieyguywuf: You can use OverloadedLists, if you fancy that.
2020-12-05 19:42:38 +0100 <zyklotomic> dminuoso: this is what I ended up "translating" that python too https://github.com/Jyutt/jieba-hs/blob/32b808fe92860b1eee0451b8bec9fdb67f8f04e5/src/Jieba/Cut.hs#L20
2020-12-05 19:42:53 +0100 <ezzieyguywuf> dminuoso: I'll take a look.
2020-12-05 19:42:59 +0100 <zyklotomic> *to, you were right, State was completely unecessary and that was satisfying
2020-12-05 19:43:04 +0100nf(~n@monade.li)
2020-12-05 19:43:05 +0100catchme(uid355354@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hxmidzshauhjcqia) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-05 19:44:45 +0100 <jle`> ezzieyguywuf: there's some package out there that lets you tack one item onto any container
2020-12-05 19:44:51 +0100 <dminuoso> zyklotomic: The amount of list concatenation looks a little worrying..
2020-12-05 19:45:09 +0100 <jle`> it might be http://hackage.haskell.org/package/nonempty-lift-0.1/docs/NonEmpty.html maybe
2020-12-05 19:45:14 +0100 <dminuoso> zyklotomic: Also, cutAll is written strangely. You should just zip with [0..] instead
2020-12-05 19:45:16 +0100 <jle`> in which case you could use NonEmpty (NonEmpty [] a)
2020-12-05 19:45:39 +0100 <zyklotomic> dminuoso: thank you, i will look into the cutAll, the cutAll was written by 3 months ago me
2020-12-05 19:45:42 +0100 <jle`> or maybe it's http://hackage.haskell.org/package/nonempty-alternative-0.4.0/docs/Data-NonEmpty.html ...
2020-12-05 19:45:58 +0100 <dminuoso> zyklotomic: Furthermore, your clauses on matching length are non idiomatic. Just pattern match on the list :)
2020-12-05 19:46:19 +0100 <dminuoso> zyklotomic: Let me give you a hint
2020-12-05 19:46:19 +0100 <zyklotomic> huh, wdym by matching length on the list
2020-12-05 19:46:33 +0100sheaf(~sheaf@2a01:cb19:80cc:7e00:ade8:1e5b:84e9:86db) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 19:47:06 +0100 <dminuoso> zyklotomic: so your entire where clause could just be:
2020-12-05 19:47:38 +0100 <dminuoso> (b:bs) = span ((==1) . length) rem
2020-12-05 19:47:44 +0100 <dminuoso> And then you have b for the head, and bs for the tail
2020-12-05 19:47:46 +0100 <dminuoso> Done!
2020-12-05 19:47:49 +0100 <zyklotomic> woah
2020-12-05 19:47:58 +0100 <zyklotomic> i appreciate it, tysm for the pointer
2020-12-05 19:47:58 +0100 <dminuoso> oh wait
2020-12-05 19:48:06 +0100 <zyklotomic> ah
2020-12-05 19:48:15 +0100 <dminuoso> not quite, but you get the idea
2020-12-05 19:48:25 +0100 <zyklotomic> should I resort to vectors then?
2020-12-05 19:48:34 +0100 <zyklotomic> if i'm going to be pushing back like that?
2020-12-05 19:48:49 +0100geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2020-12-05 19:51:33 +0100p-core(~Thunderbi@cst-prg-99-198.cust.vodafone.cz)
2020-12-05 19:51:40 +0100 <dolio> You mean appending?
2020-12-05 19:51:55 +0100 <dolio> Vectors will just guarantee the worst performance.
2020-12-05 19:52:09 +0100 <zyklotomic> yes, appending
2020-12-05 19:52:22 +0100 <zyklotomic> i've never used vectors, I thought they were going to be like C++ ones
2020-12-05 19:52:24 +0100 <dminuoso> zyklotomic: If you want to append a lot, look at DList
2020-12-05 19:52:38 +0100 <zyklotomic> but I think I guessed wrong
2020-12-05 19:52:42 +0100 <dminuoso> I gotta run, Ill be around next week if you want
2020-12-05 19:52:54 +0100 <zyklotomic> dminuoso: thank you, appreciate you a lot see you around then
2020-12-05 19:53:54 +0100 <jle`> C++ vectors would be pretty bad at appends too fwiw
2020-12-05 19:54:22 +0100falafel(~falafel@pool-71-182-130-97.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-05 19:54:33 +0100 <zyklotomic> i think my understandin is it depends on the backing array, if your backing array is large enough
2020-12-05 19:54:41 +0100 <zyklotomic> there would be no need to realloc
2020-12-05 19:55:19 +0100 <jle`> ah yeah, there's some work being done by the abstraction there :o
2020-12-05 19:55:24 +0100 <jle`> i guess it'd be closer to C arrays then
2020-12-05 19:57:00 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 19:58:53 +0100 <zyklotomic> ye, there are C++ arrays too i think, where size is fixed at compile time
2020-12-05 20:00:17 +0100 <jle`> ah :O then i guess haskell vectors they are somewhere in between? size can be determined at runtime, they are contiguous-memory, but every append requires a full copy
2020-12-05 20:00:44 +0100 <jle`> oh, i guess we run into the mutability vs immutability distinction then.
2020-12-05 20:00:52 +0100 <monochrom> C++ vectors enjoy using a mutable array at the back, so appending is amortized O(1).
2020-12-05 20:01:22 +0100 <monochrom> but it is still only amortized O(1), not real-time O(1).
2020-12-05 20:01:49 +0100 <monochrom> How to do that is in every standard 2nd year CS curriculum.
2020-12-05 20:01:58 +0100elliott_(~elliott@pool-108-51-141-12.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-05 20:01:59 +0100 <koz_> jle`: 'contiguous-memory' is a bit of a skunk statement vis-a-vis Haskell vectors, since boxed ones aren't _really_.
2020-12-05 20:02:08 +0100 <koz_> Storable or Unboxed ones, sure.
2020-12-05 20:02:33 +0100 <koz_> (Prim too I guess?)
2020-12-05 20:02:48 +0100ggole(~ggole@2001:8003:8119:7200:1d5:8df6:c4ab:d6ce) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-12-05 20:03:02 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2020-12-05 20:03:19 +0100berberman(~berberman@unaffiliated/berberman)
2020-12-05 20:03:38 +0100 <jle`> i suppose, but it'd be similar in C++ if you had a vector of pointers
2020-12-05 20:03:50 +0100 <monochrom> Also the way it's done has consequences in heap fragmentation and reserving a lot of space that goes unused for a long time.
2020-12-05 20:04:19 +0100 <koz_> jle`: Yeah, that is also true.
2020-12-05 20:04:26 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-05 20:04:29 +0100 <zyklotomic> so haskell vectors don't work the way I think they do in short?
2020-12-05 20:04:40 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: How did you think they worked?
2020-12-05 20:04:56 +0100 <zyklotomic> the c++ way in the background
2020-12-05 20:05:04 +0100 <koz_> If you mean std::vector, then no.
2020-12-05 20:05:05 +0100 <zyklotomic> with a contiguous memory and a smart pointer
2020-12-05 20:05:07 +0100 <dolio> Immutable vectors aren't mutable vectors, no.
2020-12-05 20:05:15 +0100 <koz_> std::vector is a dynamic array which is mutable.
2020-12-05 20:05:16 +0100 <jle`> i thiiink your intuition is mostly correct, if you factor in that there is no backing array underneath what you can directly access
2020-12-05 20:05:17 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 20:05:21 +0100 <jle`> and yeah, they're immutable
2020-12-05 20:05:54 +0100 <dolio> Haskell has both, but you can't just drop mutable vectors into an algorithm using immutable lists.
2020-12-05 20:05:54 +0100 <jle`> but i think the consequences of immutability are mostly intuitive here, like how you can't edit an item in an immutable vector without a full copy
2020-12-05 20:05:58 +0100 <koz_> Vector is more like a C array, of pointers in the case of boxed ones, or directly otherwise, which is immutable (though mutables exist), and has a fusion framework to hide some of the copying.
2020-12-05 20:06:03 +0100b3z(~b3z@vmd41962.contaboserver.net)
2020-12-05 20:06:15 +0100 <koz_> s/hide/avoid/
2020-12-05 20:06:28 +0100 <koz_> Key word here is 'some' - there are things where it can't help doing copies.
2020-12-05 20:06:32 +0100 <zyklotomic> yes, or in the same way the backing array part is abstracted away from you in c++ too
2020-12-05 20:06:49 +0100 <zyklotomic> that makes sense, my guess was originally that something like
2020-12-05 20:07:03 +0100 <zyklotomic> append ++ would during run time determine what to do, whether to realloc or just move the "pointer"
2020-12-05 20:07:17 +0100 <zyklotomic> so that sounds like mutable vector?
2020-12-05 20:07:30 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Nope. A Haskell mutable vector is more like a mutable C array.
2020-12-05 20:07:41 +0100 <koz_> So if you want to do appends, you're likely copying and reallocating.
2020-12-05 20:07:44 +0100 <koz_> A lot, potentially.
2020-12-05 20:07:52 +0100 <monochrom> yeah fixed size. You write your own code to grow.
2020-12-05 20:07:53 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 20:07:55 +0100 <koz_> So if you have an append-heavy workload, I would suggest another data structure.
2020-12-05 20:08:03 +0100 <koz_> (DList or Seq)
2020-12-05 20:08:05 +0100geekosaur(82659a09@host154-009.vpn.uakron.edu)
2020-12-05 20:08:41 +0100Adeon(sid418992@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-plwafdhgynwzbsxy) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 20:09:07 +0100 <zyklotomic> that makes sense, thank you
2020-12-05 20:09:21 +0100 <zyklotomic> do people usually try to rethink how an algorithm should function to work with Lists if possible
2020-12-05 20:09:26 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: No.
2020-12-05 20:09:30 +0100 <zyklotomic> or is it normal to just reach for these diff data structures
2020-12-05 20:09:39 +0100 <zyklotomic> the latter?
2020-12-05 20:09:40 +0100 <koz_> Lists _can_ be useful, but they're absolutely _not_ the data structure I'd reach for in most instances.
2020-12-05 20:09:54 +0100 <monochrom> I don't always use list. But I always think.
2020-12-05 20:09:54 +0100 <koz_> Basically, think what operations you care about.
2020-12-05 20:10:06 +0100 <koz_> Then select the data structure that makes these operations as cheap as possible.
2020-12-05 20:10:27 +0100Adeon(sid418992@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xditysqsqosidsfr)
2020-12-05 20:10:29 +0100 <jle`> i think lists are not really the best 'container data structure' in most cases. their main strength in haskell is in streaming data or control flow
2020-12-05 20:10:47 +0100 <jle`> so lists in haskell kind of fill a similar role to for loops in imperative languages
2020-12-05 20:10:50 +0100 <zyklotomic> they all seem obscure and require an external dependcy which is why I usually feel more hesitant about reaching out to another DS
2020-12-05 20:10:56 +0100 <monochrom> And I always use my CS education.
2020-12-05 20:10:59 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: They aren't obscure at all.
2020-12-05 20:11:08 +0100 <koz_> containers isn't really an external dependency either.
2020-12-05 20:11:16 +0100 <koz_> (because it's a boot library I think?)
2020-12-05 20:11:19 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210)
2020-12-05 20:11:26 +0100 <jle`> yeah, you should be safe if you stay in the 'boot libraries', or the libraries that GHC itself uses in its source code
2020-12-05 20:11:28 +0100 <monochrom> Dependency on Hackage is the norm around here.
2020-12-05 20:11:31 +0100 <koz_> And that gives you Seq, Set, Map, which already gets you surprisingly far.
2020-12-05 20:11:39 +0100 <zyklotomic> maybe I should get more comfortable with that then
2020-12-05 20:11:41 +0100 <jle`> at least for starting out
2020-12-05 20:11:50 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Basically, learn about data structures.
2020-12-05 20:11:52 +0100 <zyklotomic> it's not like kitchensink languages i guess?
2020-12-05 20:11:58 +0100 <koz_> Haskell is _reasonably_ well-equipped with them.
2020-12-05 20:11:59 +0100 <monochrom> No.
2020-12-05 20:12:43 +0100 <monochrom> Especially if "kitchen sink" means to the millenials IoT, e.g., you expect the kitchen sink to have an http server.
2020-12-05 20:12:50 +0100 <zyklotomic> koz_: i guess more so haskell data structures?
2020-12-05 20:12:59 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Data structures are data structures.
2020-12-05 20:13:06 +0100 <koz_> How you implement them is another story.
2020-12-05 20:13:11 +0100 <koz_> A HAMT is a HAMT is a HAMT.
2020-12-05 20:13:17 +0100 <koz_> (to give a favourite example)
2020-12-05 20:13:30 +0100 <jle`> this is the list i reference https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/libraries/version-history -- the boot libraries are all very tried true, optimized, wlel documented, mostly beginner friendly, etc., since they're an integral part of ghc building itself
2020-12-05 20:13:39 +0100 <koz_> You can implement a HAMT in Haskell, C++ or Brainfuck. It'll still be a HAMT.
2020-12-05 20:13:48 +0100 <zyklotomic> koz_: but you can't as easily implement them
2020-12-05 20:13:50 +0100 <monochrom> Well, immutable data structures are much less taught in standard CS curricula.
2020-12-05 20:13:53 +0100 <zyklotomic> so its' not as intuitive?
2020-12-05 20:13:53 +0100 <jle`> well, different data structures are more important in idiomatic (immutable, lazy) haskell than in other languages
2020-12-05 20:14:07 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Unless you're planning to write data structures yourself? Understanding how they work is enough.
2020-12-05 20:14:16 +0100 <jle`> i'd say some of them are pretty intuitive, but it's a different sort of intuition than the one you learn in normal CS
2020-12-05 20:14:20 +0100 <monochrom> Still, "a CS education" does not just mean a ton of rote memorization.
2020-12-05 20:14:22 +0100 <koz_> Basically a core education in this area is 'what are data structures, what are they good at'.
2020-12-05 20:14:23 +0100 <zyklotomic> yeah that's what I'm trying to say
2020-12-05 20:14:48 +0100 <zyklotomic> there is some kind of imperative-ness tied to data structures courses in college
2020-12-05 20:14:54 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Unfortunately yes.
2020-12-05 20:15:06 +0100 <koz_> But you can always ask here.
2020-12-05 20:15:17 +0100 <koz_> We're more than happy to explain the why.
2020-12-05 20:15:18 +0100 <zyklotomic> yup true :D
2020-12-05 20:15:20 +0100 <jle`> also most of the data structures you'll normally use here have good documentation with runtime complexities in them
2020-12-05 20:15:38 +0100 <jle`> so if you're uncertain about vector append, you can just look at the vector docs for (++) and see that it's O(n+m) :)
2020-12-05 20:15:41 +0100emergence(~emergence@vm0.max-p.me)
2020-12-05 20:15:59 +0100 <jle`> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.12.1.2/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:-43--43-
2020-12-05 20:16:00 +0100 <koz_> AKA 'this isn't something you want to do often with vectors'.
2020-12-05 20:16:02 +0100 <monochrom> I have issues with "intuitive", too. Look, mutable binary search trees are just as unintuitive.
2020-12-05 20:16:18 +0100 <koz_> monochrom: As someone who actually had to present on red-black trees, this is a mood.
2020-12-05 20:16:35 +0100 <koz_> Deletions especially, oof.
2020-12-05 20:16:58 +0100 <monochrom> I know because on the exam I gave students "show the steps of BST insert for this small example tree", and the exam is open book, and the students can still blow it.
2020-12-05 20:17:23 +0100 <koz_> monochrom: Yeah, even on _non_-self-balancing (self-unbalancing?) BSTs, this stuff's full of tricky corners.
2020-12-05 20:17:41 +0100 <koz_> I taught this for several years, so definitely hear you on that.
2020-12-05 20:17:52 +0100 <jle`> not that the answers are always in a book, but reading Okazaki's pure data structures book was a good way for me to gain some intuition about common patterns and things to think about when implementing or using immutable data structures
2020-12-05 20:18:14 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, Chris Okasaki is like, a hero.
2020-12-05 20:18:34 +0100 <pjb> zyklotomic: it's true that a lot of data structures are designed for mutation.
2020-12-05 20:18:35 +0100 <jle`> enough that i can now reason through things like "oh yeah, of course splitAt n for lists is O(n)", without having to look it up
2020-12-05 20:18:52 +0100 <pjb> zyklotomic: hence their imperative yang.
2020-12-05 20:19:11 +0100 <koz_> Thing is, in Haskell, we _can_ have mutable data structures if we want.
2020-12-05 20:19:14 +0100 <koz_> (thanks, ST!)
2020-12-05 20:19:25 +0100 <koz_> We just rarely bother because surprisingly, it's not necessarily faster.
2020-12-05 20:19:41 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210) ()
2020-12-05 20:19:45 +0100 <pjb> zyklotomic: but you can also approach them in a more functionnal ie. immutable way, notably with the RAII pattenr.
2020-12-05 20:20:40 +0100shf(~sheaf@2a01:cb19:80cc:7e00:d5a1:7920:3b80:ee90)
2020-12-05 20:20:55 +0100 <pjb> zyklotomic: that said, purely functional (immutable) data structures are often less efficient. But that's because the universe is not functional, it's full of mutable state. By default, entropy, enthalpy, etc…
2020-12-05 20:21:18 +0100 <pjb> This is why I think a purely functional programming language is an error.
2020-12-05 20:21:23 +0100 <jle`> i mean, they can be more efficient for specific operations :)
2020-12-05 20:21:44 +0100 <jle`> a lot of times the immutable structure will be a more efficient choice than the mutable one
2020-12-05 20:21:58 +0100doct0rhu(~orctarorg@pool-72-88-158-154.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-05 20:22:09 +0100 <monochrom> No, the pursuit of maximum run-time efficency is the error.
2020-12-05 20:22:16 +0100 <jle`> i guess you said 'often', so you aren't speaking in absolutes. but i think the picture is more even-split than suggested
2020-12-05 20:22:27 +0100 <monochrom> Programmer inefficiency is more expensive than run-time inefficiency.
2020-12-05 20:22:43 +0100 <koz_> Also, there is no good, there is only good enough, when it comes to run-time.
2020-12-05 20:22:57 +0100 <koz_> If your bounds aren't your structure, immutability offers many benefits.
2020-12-05 20:23:17 +0100 <monochrom> The world has so far recognized "run time" and "compile time". Few have reached the enlightenment of recognizing "programming time".
2020-12-05 20:23:34 +0100 <koz_> And the difference between immutable and mutable structures serving similar roles can be _really damned thin_.
2020-12-05 20:23:43 +0100 <MarcelineVQ> I'm on break time
2020-12-05 20:24:12 +0100sw1nn(~sw1nn@host81-131-191-165.range81-131.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-05 20:25:02 +0100 <zyklotomic> what exactly is immutability then?
2020-12-05 20:25:11 +0100 <zyklotomic> couldn't you have runtime immutability
2020-12-05 20:25:11 +0100 <monochrom> Mathematics.
2020-12-05 20:25:11 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: The ability to retain any past state.
2020-12-05 20:25:17 +0100jonatanb(jonatanb@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/jonatanb) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 20:25:19 +0100sw1nn(~sw1nn@host81-131-191-165.range81-131.btcentralplus.com)
2020-12-05 20:25:31 +0100 <zyklotomic> what is "retain"
2020-12-05 20:25:32 +0100 <koz_> So like, an insert into an immutable structure gives you a new structure.
2020-12-05 20:25:38 +0100 <monochrom> If you say "define x to be 4" then x stays as 4.
2020-12-05 20:25:39 +0100 <koz_> Rather than changing an existing one.
2020-12-05 20:25:50 +0100blankhart(~blankhart@c-71-232-98-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 20:26:00 +0100 <zyklotomic> yes, but that is just a social construct
2020-12-05 20:26:08 +0100 <monochrom> If x satisfies "x+2 = 6 because x=4" then x+2=6 stays true.
2020-12-05 20:26:13 +0100 <zyklotomic> I could mutate it and say this is in fact a new data structure
2020-12-05 20:26:24 +0100 <zyklotomic> the old one is just gone into the void
2020-12-05 20:26:25 +0100 <monochrom> There is no "change 4 to 5, so now 5+2=6 is true".
2020-12-05 20:26:50 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Except in the immutable world, I could still use 'structure' after that insert in its pre-insert form.
2020-12-05 20:26:57 +0100 <monochrom> See also: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/prerequisite.xhtml#leibniz
2020-12-05 20:27:00 +0100 <koz_> Good luck doing this with a mutable structure without copying it first.
2020-12-05 20:27:07 +0100 <jle`> one way you could think of immutable data structure is 'persistent', as opposed to 'ephemeral' (immutable). meaning all updates are non-destructuve, and you can always refer to all instance sof it you have ever had
2020-12-05 20:27:13 +0100 <zyklotomic> koz_: then don't?
2020-12-05 20:27:17 +0100 <koz_> Also what jle` said.
2020-12-05 20:27:25 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Yes, you can pretend mutable structures are immutable.
2020-12-05 20:27:31 +0100 <koz_> However, then it's on _you_ to track this.
2020-12-05 20:27:34 +0100 <zyklotomic> yeah, that is my question
2020-12-05 20:27:36 +0100 <koz_> Whereas here, the language does it for you.
2020-12-05 20:27:40 +0100 <zyklotomic> couldn't you prove it yourself
2020-12-05 20:27:44 +0100 <jle`> zyklotomic: if i say x = 3, and then let y = x + 4, then x is still 3, right? how would x ever be anything other than 3?
2020-12-05 20:27:45 +0100 <zyklotomic> kind of like reference counting in Rust
2020-12-05 20:27:50 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Sure you could. Don't you have better things to do though?
2020-12-05 20:27:57 +0100 <koz_> I'd rather _not_ do work my computer can do for me.
2020-12-05 20:28:09 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210)
2020-12-05 20:28:17 +0100 <monochrom> See? Programming time is more expensive.
2020-12-05 20:28:20 +0100 <zyklotomic> in the name of performance i suppose
2020-12-05 20:28:20 +0100 <jle`> zyklotomic: yeah, if your point is 'immutability is in how you use the structure', than yeah, you could think of persistence as a property of an API
2020-12-05 20:28:30 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Yeah, but if it doesn't matter?
2020-12-05 20:28:34 +0100 <koz_> (and it often doesn't)
2020-12-05 20:28:39 +0100 <monochrom> Programmer performance is more important.
2020-12-05 20:28:44 +0100 <koz_> There's a reason we don't write everything in x86 asm.
2020-12-05 20:28:52 +0100 <jle`> the API's property is: "all references will reliably always return the same result whenever accessed"
2020-12-05 20:28:53 +0100 <koz_> (well, several)
2020-12-05 20:29:20 +0100 <jle`> so if you reference x once, then reference x again, an 'immutable interface'/'persistent interface' is a contract that both references will always return the same value
2020-12-05 20:29:29 +0100 <zyklotomic> thats a tougher pill to swallow but i can see your argument
2020-12-05 20:29:31 +0100 <monochrom> Eventually I'll have to take the extremist stance "if you haven't learned how to prove programs correct, you don't have the license to talk about performance".
2020-12-05 20:29:32 +0100 <cads> Hmm, so "chunking" the imports lets me reduce the number of "import" words in this document from 46 to 18, trims the imports section by 18 lines (31%), and in my opinion makes the imports section much easier to reason about in mental chunks
2020-12-05 20:30:00 +0100 <cads> Before: https://gist.github.com/maxsu/9a622c735045ab95d938b2a3e20f3ad9 after: https://gist.github.com/maxsu/db9b0182b1d95225965a00b29684fce8
2020-12-05 20:30:03 +0100 <koz_> monochrom: Arguably you're more than halfway there already.
2020-12-05 20:30:11 +0100idhugo(~idhugo@80-62-117-97-mobile.dk.customer.tdc.net)
2020-12-05 20:30:25 +0100 <monochrom> Because people talk about performance like really high-performance code is so really trivial to understand and even invent.
2020-12-05 20:31:03 +0100 <zyklotomic> so we shouldn't worry about complexity either?
2020-12-05 20:31:11 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Complexity in what sense?
2020-12-05 20:31:18 +0100 <zyklotomic> like using a list ++
2020-12-05 20:31:21 +0100 <zyklotomic> multiple times
2020-12-05 20:31:34 +0100 <zyklotomic> if like it makes things easier to write / programmer productivity
2020-12-05 20:31:41 +0100 <zyklotomic> sometimes these tradeoffs are worth?
2020-12-05 20:31:49 +0100 <monochrom> worry about complexity under the context of what other priorities?
2020-12-05 20:31:56 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: Yes, they are, sometimes. It depends on a _lot_ of other things.
2020-12-05 20:32:14 +0100 <monochrom> I certainly don't worry about complexity (or anything, even correctness) out of context.
2020-12-05 20:32:40 +0100 <monochrom> Tell me all of your priorities and their relative importance. Then we can talk.
2020-12-05 20:32:41 +0100 <zyklotomic> wdym by context
2020-12-05 20:33:01 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: What are you working on? What kind of requirements are placed on your performance? How soon do you need it? etc etc etc
2020-12-05 20:33:07 +0100 <zyklotomic> it is not so much a priority but the gut feeling like
2020-12-05 20:33:32 +0100 <zyklotomic> why write inefficient code when you know how to do it less, but again, that is what the CS curriculum you mention teaches you
2020-12-05 20:33:39 +0100 <cads> context is hard... it's basically the datatype for the whole world around you, and it is much, much more complicated than anything you can possibly understand
2020-12-05 20:33:44 +0100 <zyklotomic> s/less/more efficiently
2020-12-05 20:33:57 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 20:34:01 +0100 <jle`> zyklotomic: that's a good question to ask: ("why write ..."). and it's a valid question with different answers in different situations
2020-12-05 20:34:09 +0100 <cads> so you limit it to specific scopes, and ask what's important
2020-12-05 20:34:11 +0100 <jle`> sometimes there are good reasons depending on your ultimate goal
2020-12-05 20:34:14 +0100 <monochrom> I have a collection of tuples, (student name, student number). I have another collection of tuples, (student number, tutorial section). I want to do the inner join of them.
2020-12-05 20:35:15 +0100 <monochrom> I chose the stupid quadratic-time algorithm because it's a one-liner in Haskell and I merely have 200 students, what do you mean worry about complexity, I have better things to do such as thinking really hard how to explain type inference to undergrads.
2020-12-05 20:35:45 +0100 <koz_> monochrom: And I suspect the IO needed to load said data is gonna take longer than the quadratic inner join.
2020-12-05 20:35:51 +0100 <monochrom> If I ever get a class of 100000 students, maybe I'll consider spending time on an n lg n algorithm.
2020-12-05 20:35:55 +0100 <koz_> (by like, a lot)
2020-12-05 20:36:01 +0100 <jle`> complexity analysis is also very limited even if you're thinking about performance...it ignores constant factors important for actual decisions in specific situations
2020-12-05 20:36:01 +0100 <monochrom> yeah
2020-12-05 20:36:05 +0100 <monochrom> PRIORITIES
2020-12-05 20:36:11 +0100 <zyklotomic> yes, but something like that can be very easily done in imperative
2020-12-05 20:36:14 +0100 <koz_> What jle` says is absolutely true.
2020-12-05 20:36:18 +0100 <zyklotomic> but I get your point too
2020-12-05 20:36:19 +0100 <monochrom> What do you mean you don't know what priorities and contexts mean.
2020-12-05 20:36:24 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: What do you mean by 'easily' and 'done'?
2020-12-05 20:36:34 +0100 <cads> to get from a complexity analysis to an actionable business intelligence takes a very important thing: spreadsheets
2020-12-05 20:36:37 +0100 <koz_> I can speak from personal experience here - my own Master's thesis is a perfect example.
2020-12-05 20:36:47 +0100livvy(~livvy@gateway/tor-sasl/livvy)
2020-12-05 20:36:56 +0100 <monochrom> In imperative I would still use the same stupid quadratic-time algorithm. It's just two for-loops.
2020-12-05 20:37:11 +0100 <cads> if you are doing a complexity analysis and there's no graphs and spreadsheets of REAL experiments, you're not doing much
2020-12-05 20:37:15 +0100 <monochrom> And I am not alone.
2020-12-05 20:37:15 +0100 <koz_> I show that, in theory, my algorithm for dynamic partial sorting has better asymptotics than the naive approach. In practice, the constants are so gigantic that your input would have to exceed the number of atoms in the universe for it to matter any.
2020-12-05 20:37:28 +0100 <zyklotomic> i think I have the wrong mindset then
2020-12-05 20:37:45 +0100 <zyklotomic> in school and interviewing, all you ever tihnk about is complexity and not coming up with something stupid
2020-12-05 20:37:52 +0100 <jle`> zyklotomic: there are reasons to pick the 'lower asymptotic complexity' operation in imperative programming too
2020-12-05 20:37:55 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: You understand context fine.
2020-12-05 20:37:58 +0100boxscape(54a35b08@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.84.163.91.8)
2020-12-05 20:37:59 +0100 <jle`> often times it will be the best choice in your situation
2020-12-05 20:38:03 +0100 <koz_> As well as 'it depends'. :P
2020-12-05 20:38:05 +0100codeAlways(uid272474@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pwlwqqopuhyebeps) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2020-12-05 20:38:09 +0100 <zyklotomic> so you naturally have an aversion, (at least I, I'll speak for myself) to
2020-12-05 20:38:26 +0100 <monochrom> I have looked at the code library of world-class programming contest contestants. I am talking about bloody U of Waterloo which wins the world champion of ACM ICPC every once in a while. The code library they bring on paper to the contests.
2020-12-05 20:38:44 +0100 <koz_> Is that the one with the brute-force heap code?
2020-12-05 20:38:47 +0100 <monochrom> You heard that DIjkstra's algorithm uses a priority queue, in theory, right?
2020-12-05 20:39:01 +0100kupi(uid212005@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ilpqogltmhlqsyet)
2020-12-05 20:39:06 +0100 <monochrom> Well their code uses a flat array and linear search for every priority queue operations.
2020-12-05 20:39:15 +0100 <cads> koz_, you really invented one of those algorithms with great asymptotics but ludicrous constants? did you have to go out of your way to do it, or did it get revealed gradually in a hilarious and/or disappointing way?
2020-12-05 20:39:24 +0100 <koz_> cads: Yep!
2020-12-05 20:39:32 +0100 <monochrom> Apparently "fast enough" is very much enough.
2020-12-05 20:39:37 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-12-05 20:39:41 +0100 <koz_> The idea was basically hitting it with a divide-and-conquer hammer.
2020-12-05 20:39:48 +0100blankhart(~blankhart@c-71-232-98-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2020-12-05 20:39:54 +0100 <koz_> But said divide and conquer hammering meant constant factors everywhere.
2020-12-05 20:39:58 +0100 <zyklotomic> "stupid" solutions
2020-12-05 20:40:17 +0100 <koz_> So while it manages the impressive feat of having a time complexity dependendent on log^*(n), it's totally useless.
2020-12-05 20:40:25 +0100 <jle`> solutions can be bad or good, but what makes them bad or good is more than just their asymptotic complexity...
2020-12-05 20:40:33 +0100 <koz_> jle`: Fredkin trie anyone? :P
2020-12-05 20:40:38 +0100 <koz_> (Fibonacci heap too I think)
2020-12-05 20:41:12 +0100 <cads> imo the dumber I can make a solution and it's still robust and meets the spec, the more favor I give to anyone (including myself) who will have to touch the code later
2020-12-05 20:41:24 +0100 <koz_> Yeah, readability is a big thing too.
2020-12-05 20:41:50 +0100 <koz_> I think it was Sussman who famously said 'Code is written primarily for people to read and only incidentally for a machine to execute'?
2020-12-05 20:41:56 +0100et09(~et09@unaffiliated/endolphin)
2020-12-05 20:42:12 +0100 <zyklotomic> then i honestly think these points aren't really hammered into your usual DSA classes then
2020-12-05 20:42:22 +0100 <koz_> zyklotomic: You're telling me!
2020-12-05 20:42:25 +0100 <geekosaur> this is true
2020-12-05 20:42:28 +0100 <et09> i have xmonad which (iirc) is building via stack
2020-12-05 20:42:37 +0100 <koz_> I cannot _count_ the number of arguments I had with the folks I was TAing in those classes for.
2020-12-05 20:42:39 +0100 <et09> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmonad-contrib-0.16/docs/XMonad-Actions-GridSelect.html#t:GSCo… curiously this gs_bordercolor can't be found
2020-12-05 20:42:43 +0100 <koz_> On exactly this kind of issue.
2020-12-05 20:42:49 +0100 <zyklotomic> but i definitely am shifting towards agreeing with you all now
2020-12-05 20:42:53 +0100 <jle`> yeah all i hear about in my DSA classes is overthrowing the bourgeoisie
2020-12-05 20:42:56 +0100 <et09> i'm trying to find my local definition of GSConfig
2020-12-05 20:43:00 +0100 <koz_> jle`: ROFL
2020-12-05 20:43:10 +0100 <monochrom> You need to understand that most interview questions are not representative of work environments.
2020-12-05 20:43:20 +0100 <koz_> Very much this.
2020-12-05 20:43:30 +0100 <zyklotomic> yup, it's just kinda disjarring sometimes
2020-12-05 20:43:34 +0100 <koz_> Speaking as someone who had a very nice interview for my current Real Haskell Job For Real Money.
2020-12-05 20:43:43 +0100 <koz_> (I was prepared for the kind of horror shows I've seen and heard about)
2020-12-05 20:43:46 +0100 <koz_> (luckily did not get one)
2020-12-05 20:43:52 +0100Tario(~Tario@201.192.165.173)
2020-12-05 20:43:55 +0100 <koz_> (_still_ isn't in any way representative of what I am working on now)
2020-12-05 20:44:08 +0100 <monochrom> You also need to understand that a CS exam question only asks "assuming I force you to optimize for big-O, what is the best you can do". But it doesn't ask under what circumstance you should optimize for that.
2020-12-05 20:44:13 +0100 <boxscape> % type Void' :: TYPE (SumRep '[]); newtype Void' = Void' Void' -- is this the only way to have a genuinely uninhabited type?
2020-12-05 20:44:13 +0100 <yahb> boxscape:
2020-12-05 20:44:44 +0100 <koz_> boxscape: I think EmptyDataDeclarations (or something like it) lets you do it more directly?
2020-12-05 20:44:55 +0100 <boxscape> koz_ but then it's a lifted type, so it contains bottom
2020-12-05 20:44:56 +0100 <jle`> i think they're talking about even prohibiting bottom
2020-12-05 20:45:16 +0100 <cads> wait, there are comrades in software engineering classes and they want to overthrow the bourgeousie and also they lack practical software engineering knowledge?!
2020-12-05 20:45:26 +0100 <cads> my comrades! I MUST LEAD!
2020-12-05 20:45:36 +0100 <koz_> boxscape: I see you don't agree with Sir Mix-A-Lot.
2020-12-05 20:45:58 +0100 <koz_> (sorry)
2020-12-05 20:45:59 +0100 <boxscape> koz_ not today
2020-12-05 20:46:01 +0100 <koz_> :P
2020-12-05 20:46:07 +0100da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~da39a3ee5@mx-ll-171.5.29-209.dynamic.3bb.co.th)
2020-12-05 20:46:15 +0100 <boxscape> % type Void' :: TYPE (SumRep '[]); newtype Void' = Void' (forall a . a) -- actually it looks like this works, too
2020-12-05 20:46:15 +0100 <yahb> boxscape:
2020-12-05 20:46:43 +0100 <zyklotomic> monochrom: i know i tell myself all that, but you're right, i'm only telling myself, but not actually believing it
2020-12-05 20:47:00 +0100 <monochrom> You need to understand that most interview questions are screening questions to filter out the dumbest 99% of the candidates so the interview can save time.
2020-12-05 20:47:02 +0100texasmynsted(~texasmyns@212.102.45.112) ()
2020-12-05 20:47:42 +0100 <cads> monochrom, also I want to see who has the guts to implement monadic fizzbuzz in a way that fully respects DRY
2020-12-05 20:47:48 +0100 <monochrom> So for example first they ask "write code for fizzbuzz". That immediate filters out the bottom 80%. But this does not mean you write fizzbuzz in production code. Duh.
2020-12-05 20:47:55 +0100plakband(~plakband@softbank126074182017.bbtec.net) (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2020-12-05 20:47:55 +0100 <koz_> It's also worth mentioning that most interviews are incredibly bad at what they claim to be doing.
2020-12-05 20:48:08 +0100britva(~britva@31-10-157-156.cgn.dynamic.upc.ch)
2020-12-05 20:48:20 +0100 <monochrom> Then the 2nd question is "write code for BST insert" and that filters out another 19%.
2020-12-05 20:48:26 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2020-12-05 20:48:50 +0100 <monochrom> And if you're applying for Microsoft, I heard that the 3rd question would be "write an editor from scratch" and that will filter out the remaining 1%.
2020-12-05 20:49:01 +0100 <zyklotomic> lol
2020-12-05 20:49:07 +0100 <monochrom> Does this mean at Microsoft people write editors by hand all the time?
2020-12-05 20:49:07 +0100 <hyiltiz> LMFAO
2020-12-05 20:49:26 +0100 <monochrom> Does that mean they even care?
2020-12-05 20:49:38 +0100 <monochrom> No, it's just a test.
2020-12-05 20:49:47 +0100cadswould be filtered at phase II, because they think BST stands for "bull shit tree", as in "what is this bullshit tree insert you think I'm gonna write for you?"
2020-12-05 20:50:17 +0100argent0(~argent0@168.227.97.34)
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2020-12-05 20:51:06 +0100 <zyklotomic> true
2020-12-05 20:51:14 +0100 <cads> for writing the editor i would start by forking the vs-code source code, which would actually impress the microsofties
2020-12-05 20:51:35 +0100 <zyklotomic> the harder part to accept which I have slowly started to as a result of this convo though is that sometimes it's not worth the time to over-complify
2020-12-05 20:51:42 +0100 <zyklotomic> if I understood the message correctly
2020-12-05 20:51:57 +0100 <zyklotomic> *in pursuit of performance
2020-12-05 20:52:05 +0100britva(~britva@31-10-157-156.cgn.dynamic.upc.ch) (Client Quit)
2020-12-05 20:52:32 +0100 <zyklotomic> I know "pre-mature optimization is the root of all evil" and all, but maybe this extends to optimization at the cost of clarity / programming efficiency
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2020-12-05 20:53:44 +0100 <monochrom> OOOHHHH I now understand why Microsoft is happy with releasing vs-code source code for free.
2020-12-05 20:53:53 +0100 <monochrom> They simply stole it from interviewees.
2020-12-05 20:53:54 +0100 <cads> you could try to think in terms of how much you're gonna pay someone for a given line of code. If it's some very optimized code, you'll pay a lot - if that's you maintaining it you'll pay from your own limited time here on this earth. it better be worth it, and unless something is paying you to make the improvement, you're literally marching towards death for no reason, wasting time
2020-12-05 20:54:27 +0100 <monochrom> Well, maybe it's a fair exchange, they pay for interviewee airplane tickets and food and hotel room.
2020-12-05 20:54:43 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-12-05 20:54:43 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2020-12-05 20:54:46 +0100 <zyklotomic> well none of that this year lol
2020-12-05 20:54:49 +0100 <monochrom> But at least, not quite employee salary.
2020-12-05 20:55:07 +0100 <zyklotomic> but yeah cads thats kinda depressingly real but....
2020-12-05 20:55:19 +0100 <zyklotomic> cads: i'll start thinking about that more often
2020-12-05 20:55:33 +0100 <hyiltiz> cads imma remember that quote for life...
2020-12-05 20:55:40 +0100 <zyklotomic> typing into an irc channel on haskell, perfect use of time though!
2020-12-05 20:57:07 +0100 <cads> lol, only listen to my words on their own merit, for I am a huge hypocrite. I spent 3 hours yesterday rewriting a mouse gesture filtering algorithm because "the math wasn't elegant enough" in the original implementation
2020-12-05 20:57:27 +0100nuru(6dced5cb@109.206.213.203)
2020-12-05 20:58:05 +0100 <zyklotomic> i guess unless you genuinely enjoyed the process
2020-12-05 20:58:08 +0100muskratt(~dawgbruh@pool-98-110-20-135.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net)
2020-12-05 20:58:25 +0100 <zyklotomic> time wasnt wasted if you enjoyed it
2020-12-05 20:59:07 +0100 <cads> I mean, yes, I turned 40 lines of hell code into 12 lines that (in my opinion) read like poetry.. but did I /really/ enjoy the process... for example, my hand was going numb because I'm suffering from bad carpal tunnel rn. I could not feel my right hand. Should I /really/ have done that to myself?
2020-12-05 20:59:55 +0100 <cads> lol, who am I kidding, that is what makes my life worth living
2020-12-05 21:00:31 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 21:00:58 +0100alp(~alp@2a01:e0a:58b:4920:f8ca:e52d:bace:9aad)
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2020-12-05 21:02:44 +0100 <monochrom> Awww. Yeah, hurting your hand might not be worth it.
2020-12-05 21:03:12 +0100 <monochrom> If not for that, the learning experience is very valuable.
2020-12-05 21:03:38 +0100juuandyy(~juuandyy@90.166.144.65) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2020-12-05 21:03:42 +0100 <zyklotomic> that sounds interesting though, how does it work
2020-12-05 21:03:46 +0100 <boxscape> % type Product :: forall r q (a :: TYPE r) (b :: TYPE q) . a -> b -> *; type Product a b = Product a b
2020-12-05 21:03:47 +0100 <yahb> boxscape: ; <interactive>:23:58: error:; * Expected a type, but `a' has kind `TYPE r'; * In a standalone kind signature for `Product': forall r q (a :: TYPE r) (b :: TYPE q). a -> b -> *; <interactive>:23:63: error:; * Expected a type, but `b' has kind `TYPE q'; * In a standalone kind signature for `Product': forall r q (a :: TYPE r) (b :: TYPE q). a -> b -> *
2020-12-05 21:03:49 +0100christo(~chris@81.96.113.213)
2020-12-05 21:03:58 +0100 <boxscape> why does that not work? It seems like (->) is levity polymorphic
2020-12-05 21:04:00 +0100 <boxscape> judging by :k
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2020-12-05 21:12:27 +0100 <hyiltiz> How would you fellas deal with teams? I often find myself find pointing out a problem, then leading a discussion about alternative solutions and who does what, then keep reminding people to do their part, and then explicitly stated the application algorithm in more detail or even in psidocode, and even that didn't get them to implement the damn thing just go do it myself... If I'd just had done it myself, i'd probably have done it five times over
2020-12-05 21:12:28 +0100 <hyiltiz> in that time frame...
2020-12-05 21:13:19 +0100 <hyiltiz> Find it very hard to motivate or appreciate a team member when they are passive like a dead meat
2020-12-05 21:13:22 +0100 <koz_> hyiltiz: It depends heavily on who you work with. Having to prod colleagues is a thing I've experienced as both 'extremely necessary' and 'extremely unnecessary' (and everything in-between) depending on the folks involved.
2020-12-05 21:13:36 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-12-05 21:13:39 +0100 <koz_> So I'd say 'repeated prodding' may be exactly the right idea.
2020-12-05 21:14:06 +0100 <koz_> For the passive case, definitely prod.
2020-12-05 21:14:15 +0100 <koz_> Since passive folks in my experience _like_ being directed.
2020-12-05 21:14:21 +0100 <hyiltiz> I think dear meat can only be motivated via punishment (I'm take away your salary or something)
2020-12-05 21:14:22 +0100 <koz_> (or at least that's what I've witnessed)
2020-12-05 21:14:56 +0100 <koz_> hyiltiz: I don't think I've ever worked with anyone who needed that kind of motivation.
2020-12-05 21:14:59 +0100 <koz_> Maybe I am lucky.
2020-12-05 21:14:59 +0100 <Rembane> Create a prod-bot!
2020-12-05 21:15:16 +0100 <koz_> Rembane: Basically write 90% of current phone apps.
2020-12-05 21:15:17 +0100 <cads> I don't understand having a subordinate without also having the power to discipline or, if I decide, fire the subordinate
2020-12-05 21:15:21 +0100 <koz_> They're basically prod-bots with UIs.
2020-12-05 21:15:22 +0100 <hyiltiz> But I'd much rather ring inspiration and genuine motivation in them so they actively contribute
2020-12-05 21:15:50 +0100conal_(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 21:15:52 +0100 <cads> like I get it happens, and I get it happens a lot, and that it's frustrating when it happens. but WHY would anyone accept a subordinate they cannot fire is beyond me
2020-12-05 21:16:07 +0100 <Rembane> koz_: :D
2020-12-05 21:16:09 +0100fuzzypixelz(~fuzzypixe@eth-west-pareq2-46-193-4-100.wb.wifirst.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-12-05 21:16:21 +0100 <Rembane> hyiltiz: You need a sword
2020-12-05 21:16:24 +0100 <hyiltiz> cads situation demands...
2020-12-05 21:16:35 +0100danvet(~Daniel@2a02:168:57f4:0:efd0:b9e5:5ae6:c2fa) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 21:16:52 +0100gienah(~mwright@gentoo/developer/gienah) (Quit: leaving)
2020-12-05 21:17:35 +0100 <hyiltiz> Massive sword that programs on each swing?
2020-12-05 21:17:42 +0100 <hyiltiz> magic
2020-12-05 21:17:46 +0100Sgeo(~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net)
2020-12-05 21:18:45 +0100 <Rembane> The best kind of hacker sword
2020-12-05 21:19:06 +0100 <koz_> Rembane: Swording-as-a-service?
2020-12-05 21:19:09 +0100 <koz_> Internet-of-blades?
2020-12-05 21:19:13 +0100 <monochrom> "hack away with your sword" literally
2020-12-05 21:19:19 +0100 <koz_> Smartblade?
2020-12-05 21:19:34 +0100 <hyiltiz> I'd totally sub to saas
2020-12-05 21:20:08 +0100wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-12-05 21:20:20 +0100koz_renames Game of Thrones to 'Hackers'. :P
2020-12-05 21:20:23 +0100nowhere_man(~pierre@2a01:e0a:3c7:60d0:e88f:4e24:f6a7:f155) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-12-05 21:21:23 +0100 <hyiltiz> So no good solution without a sharp sword?
2020-12-05 21:22:31 +0100 <cads> hyiltiz, if the situation demands, I like to make counter demands, and be willing to massively screw things up for the team that won't help me (ie, by walking to a competing team that will give me better resources). Usually just being ready and willing is enough to turn the negotiation and give me what I want. In this case you could leverage to get the meat fired. But probably you just want an understanding between you and the meat, and the
2020-12-05 21:22:31 +0100 <cads> boss can give you that by leaning on them.
2020-12-05 21:22:33 +0100 <Rembane> koz_: Yes! :D
2020-12-05 21:24:49 +0100whatisRT(~whatisRT@2002:5b41:6a33:0:5e3:170b:26c2:19e9)
2020-12-05 21:25:37 +0100revprez_stg(~revprez_s@pool-108-49-213-40.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
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2020-12-05 21:27:30 +0100 <hyiltiz> Gotcha thx
2020-12-05 21:28:58 +0100Entertainment(~entertain@104.246.132.210) ()
2020-12-05 21:30:46 +0100xcmw(~textual@cpe-69-133-55-43.cinci.res.rr.com) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2020-12-05 21:31:18 +0100nehsou^(nehsou@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net) ()
2020-12-05 21:32:54 +0100cosimone(~cosimone@93-47-228-249.ip115.fastwebnet.it)
2020-12-05 21:32:55 +0100tsrt^(tsrt@ip98-184-89-2.mc.at.cox.net)
2020-12-05 21:33:37 +0100LiceoProva(~imeil.o@151.42.193.199)
2020-12-05 21:33:47 +0100 <LiceoProva> ciao
2020-12-05 21:33:51 +0100 <LiceoProva> !list
2020-12-05 21:33:51 +0100 <monochrom> LiceoProva: http://okmij.org/ftp
2020-12-05 21:33:58 +0100LiceoProva(~imeil.o@151.42.193.199) ()
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2020-12-05 23:15:12 +0100 <cads> https://gist.github.com/maxsu/db9b0182b1d95225965a00b29684fce8
2020-12-05 23:15:37 +0100 <cads> I have turned my import syntax into a proposal draft!
2020-12-05 23:15:59 +0100conal(~conal@64.71.133.70)
2020-12-05 23:16:31 +0100 <cads> the section on prior work needs /special/ attention, since I'm almost surely reinventing a wheel here
2020-12-05 23:17:05 +0100 <tomsmeding> cads: "import list (intercalate, sort)" -- typo, List not list
2020-12-05 23:17:14 +0100 <cads> thanks!
2020-12-05 23:17:16 +0100 <tomsmeding> well, Data.List
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2020-12-05 23:18:40 +0100 <tomsmeding> in general you may want make explicit that you're using lowercase module names as placeholders
2020-12-05 23:18:42 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: My two cents on the draft: I. does not really help much, you save a few mentions of `imports` at the cost of not clearly seeing what module you import identifiers from.
2020-12-05 23:20:00 +0100 <dminuoso> Say you have `import A.B.C, E.F.G, H.I.J, K.L.K (foo, bar), (quux), (baz doodle) ...` it becomes very hard to know where to modify import lists. Which import refers to what module? I dont know.
2020-12-05 23:20:16 +0100 <dminuoso> If the point is to save `import` that suggests its only valuable if you actually use it multiple itmes.
2020-12-05 23:20:20 +0100knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82c2c6000b00585fffef340d5.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-12-05 23:20:23 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
2020-12-05 23:20:24 +0100 <dminuoso> But that greatly decreases readability
2020-12-05 23:20:52 +0100 <cads> yeah, there's a cart before the horse problem there - the real innovation as I see it is part II, and the concept of import lists is something I introduced to support the concept of an import list that is prefixed by some module or namespace
2020-12-05 23:21:58 +0100sh9(~sh9@softbank060116136158.bbtec.net)
2020-12-05 23:22:16 +0100 <dminuoso> As for part II, I can see the potential merit. I'd *much* prefer you dont put the `from Data` at the end, but at the beginning instead.
2020-12-05 23:22:35 +0100 <dminuoso> So you might write `from Data import ...`
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2020-12-05 23:23:23 +0100nowhere_man(~pierre@2a01:e0a:3c7:60d0:e88f:4e24:f6a7:f155)
2020-12-05 23:23:23 +0100 <cads> nice
2020-12-05 23:23:25 +0100 <dminuoso> That seems far more reasonable, since it visually still respects the hierarchy (the referenced module comes first, and then the relative imports), and it makes it painstakingly immediately obvious what the following bulk is for
2020-12-05 23:23:28 +0100julm(~julm@revolt129.abo.ilico.org) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-05 23:23:39 +0100 <boxscape> hm how about import Data.(List, Functor, Bifunctor)
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2020-12-05 23:24:15 +0100 <boxscape> ...I guess that might make import Lists hard to look at
2020-12-05 23:24:54 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: One important thing here: If you make this an actual proposal, the syntax must be acceptable or it'll be shot down for poor ergonomics. I think its even an official rule that syntax is not for debate in a proposal.
2020-12-05 23:25:09 +0100takuan(~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-12-05 23:25:12 +0100 <dminuoso> (Because it'd just lead to bike shedding)
2020-12-05 23:25:36 +0100 <boxscape> if that is a rule it's broken quite a bit
2020-12-05 23:26:11 +0100 <tomsmeding> re:"from" at the beginning: see python import syntax
2020-12-05 23:26:22 +0100 <tomsmeding> about prior art: both python and rust have similar things
2020-12-05 23:26:25 +0100 <cads> lol, I don't understand what you mean - as in I'd have to write a grammar for my extensions? that seems pretty fair and obvious - I wouldn't write a proposal unless I had a EBNF and a working implementation
2020-12-05 23:26:44 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-12-05 23:26:44 +0100 <cads> do you mean something more stringent/
2020-12-05 23:27:18 +0100 <dolio> It means it actually has to be a good grammar, I think.
2020-12-05 23:27:37 +0100 <cads> as in the grammar also has to flow with haskell ergonomics? I think i can hit that target too, for all that I generally think haskell doesn't /have/ ergonomics (and I'm trying to introduce them)
2020-12-05 23:28:27 +0100 <dolio> And for instance, putting 'from' at the start of the line is going to complicate the parser even more.
2020-12-05 23:28:56 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: Roughly the haskell committee has a rule that the syntax of a proposal is _automatically accepted_ and not up for debate.
2020-12-05 23:29:38 +0100 <boxscape> dminuoso I don't think that's right
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2020-12-05 23:30:30 +0100 <boxscape> syntax gets debated a lot in the proposal discussion as well as in the steering comittee mailing list, and I haven't been able to find such a rule
2020-12-05 23:30:41 +0100 <dminuoso> Mmm, that's what I heard actually
2020-12-05 23:30:46 +0100 <cads> automatically based on what criterion? also I don't understand who this committee is or why I would care - the proposal is for a standalone extension that someone can run if they wanna. It's not like I'd want the committee to maintain it or include it with ghc
2020-12-05 23:30:49 +0100dminuosothinks monochrom might have said this?
2020-12-05 23:31:18 +0100 <dminuoso> Anyway
2020-12-05 23:31:37 +0100 <cads> if it's useful to me I'll go ahead and write my internal code against it regardless of what the committee thinks, I mean, doesn't that make sense?
2020-12-05 23:31:48 +0100 <dminuoso> cads: The part II has merit, but the current syntax does not seem to make things any better. I'd say they make it much worse.
2020-12-05 23:31:49 +0100merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2020-12-05 23:33:51 +0100 <boxscape> cads if what you're looking to do doesn't involve adding it to the official ghc implementation, you don't have to worry about the proposal process or the committee. Typically, when people say they're writing a proposal, they mean they write a pull request in https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/pulls outlining the changes they wish to
2020-12-05 23:33:52 +0100 <boxscape> see/implement in the official ghc repo
2020-12-05 23:35:37 +0100 <monochrom> Note that Haskell committee discussion ≠ GHC proposal discussion
2020-12-05 23:35:56 +0100 <cads> I see this becoming a proposal if I end up using it in production and I love it, so in the meantime maybe I shouldn't call it a proposal
2020-12-05 23:36:03 +0100 <boxscape> (I probably should've linked to https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals actually)
2020-12-05 23:36:04 +0100 <dminuoso> Ah
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2020-12-05 23:51:56 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, Check out section V https://gist.github.com/maxsu/db9b0182b1d95225965a00b29684fce8
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2020-12-05 23:52:40 +0100 <cads> now it's so readable I dare say it's /too readable/ ;) Of course I kid (there's no such think as TOO readable)
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2020-12-05 23:55:03 +0100 <cads> dminuoso, what I like about your form is that it forced me to add whitespace before and after, and I think the result looks great
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