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2020-09-16 22:45:09 +0200 <maerwald> Ah, you mean IO... anything goes
2020-09-16 22:45:19 +0200 <Cale> It has several...
2020-09-16 22:45:20 +0200 <monochrom> Likewise, we can all speak badly about a semantics issue, as opposed to a whole "paradigm".
2020-09-16 22:45:25 +0200knupfer(~Thunderbi@200116b82ca8150058b8c4b5b05244fc.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:45:27 +0200 <lc_> I recently tried this sort of exception handling... scheme in golang. I don't know if it's insane or not
2020-09-16 22:45:29 +0200 <hyperisco> well, the argumentation I was reading liked the unchecked ethos
2020-09-16 22:45:32 +0200 <maerwald> And none of them work consistently :)
2020-09-16 22:45:36 +0200gmt(~gmt@pool-71-105-108-44.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
2020-09-16 22:46:06 +0200 <lc_> Basically, when a function would normally return an error, I just give it two callbacks instead. One will func(err error) and the other will func(goodies Goodies)
2020-09-16 22:46:34 +0200 <hyperisco> unchecked may as well mean unityped errors
2020-09-16 22:46:40 +0200 <Graypup_> monochrom, the ones I've had a lot of trouble with are hardly advanced. Just like, figuring wtf they expect me to return (the short version of it), when some person who thought they were smart put the result through 14 monad transformers making the type fall off the screen
2020-09-16 22:46:47 +0200mirrorbird(~psutcliff@2a00:801:44b:8959:8d6c:276b:332b:1c71)
2020-09-16 22:47:19 +0200 <maerwald> transformers aren't worth it... just use IO
2020-09-16 22:47:26 +0200 <monochrom> Well OK, then it is due to some web frameworks going crazy with 14 levels of monad transformers.
2020-09-16 22:47:28 +0200 <dolio> That doesn't seem like it's GHC's fault.
2020-09-16 22:47:34 +0200 <hyperisco> my experience says there is such niche use of it that it wasn't worth my bother
2020-09-16 22:47:36 +0200 <monochrom> But it is still not representative of the majority.
2020-09-16 22:47:54 +0200 <hyperisco> there isn't any point to sussing out different types of errors unless you're going to do something different with them
2020-09-16 22:48:01 +0200 <lc_> I use this scheme to cache and replace globals, too, in golang
2020-09-16 22:48:11 +0200 <monochrom> Call me academic but I refuse to accept that web programming is representative of programming.
2020-09-16 22:48:17 +0200 <hyperisco> and practically speaking, usually just printing a string somewhere or crashing suffices
2020-09-16 22:48:18 +0200 <maerwald> I guess fpcomplete frameworks usually make heavy use of transformers
2020-09-16 22:48:19 +0200 <Graypup_> dolio, I mean, not entirely? but the only way I found out e.g. about the MForm alias was reading docs and other peoples' source coded and the vanishingly few examples
2020-09-16 22:48:40 +0200 <Graypup_> haskellers don't seem to believe in writing examples often which is very frustrating as someone trying to learn
2020-09-16 22:48:45 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108)
2020-09-16 22:48:47 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-115-67.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net) (Quit: Caught exception)
2020-09-16 22:49:05 +0200stree(~stree@50-108-115-67.adr01.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
2020-09-16 22:49:10 +0200 <lc_> I'm a web programmer and it's awful. I wish you could make money programming compilers. Not that I know anything about compilers or compiler design, just... The idea of having a program I just run on my computer that does some computation and then outputs some computation
2020-09-16 22:49:12 +0200 <hyperisco> I thought web framework = TH hell
2020-09-16 22:49:24 +0200 <monochrom> I agree that some of the web frameworks I have seen get close to requiring PhD in CS.
2020-09-16 22:49:24 +0200 <lc_> Instead of having to deal with database errors, pipelines, schema migrations, etc. etc. etc.
2020-09-16 22:49:28 +0200 <Graypup_> oh I have debugged TH bugs in persistent also
2020-09-16 22:49:35 +0200 <Graypup_> that was a bad day
2020-09-16 22:49:40 +0200 <monochrom> I disagree that this is representative of Haskell programming.
2020-09-16 22:49:40 +0200 <hyperisco> like, back in the 2000's "web framework" became inseparable from "code generation"
2020-09-16 22:49:43 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: have you used elm?
2020-09-16 22:50:00 +0200 <lc_> rustisafungus: I have not
2020-09-16 22:50:24 +0200 <hyperisco> and all that is happening in Haskell frameworks is a somewhat more disciplined code generation
2020-09-16 22:50:26 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: please take a moment and write tic tac toe or something in elm, you will be very pleasantly surprised
2020-09-16 22:50:28 +0200 <maerwald> Theres something missing in Software Engineering... no matter what language you use, imo. It's the "Engineering".
2020-09-16 22:50:30 +0200asdfasdfasdf(339a7d12@51.154.125.18)
2020-09-16 22:50:39 +0200 <Graypup_> also the persistent folks said "oh you should read our tests to figure out how to use compound keying" when the tests were incredibly hard to follow since they were doing clever stuff to write the tests concisely at the expense of understanding the code
2020-09-16 22:50:47 +0200 <hyperisco> be it TH or crazy daisy type classes / families
2020-09-16 22:50:56 +0200 <Graypup_> people seem to be very allergic to writing examples
2020-09-16 22:50:58 +0200 <lc_> I should say, back-end web developer*, not front-end. My partner handles that
2020-09-16 22:51:16 +0200 <Graypup_> I hope that the library I maintain is an exception
2020-09-16 22:51:21 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: you know, even though you are back-end, give elm a try
2020-09-16 22:51:33 +0200 <koala_man> lc_: Facebook does a lot of compiler work. I had no idea until they released Infer, the Java/ObjC static analysis tool written in OCaml.
2020-09-16 22:51:33 +0200 <lc_> I just write golang stuff. I'd literally kms if I had to write javascript and css for a living, stg
2020-09-16 22:51:49 +0200 <rustisafungus> lc_: elm was designed for a person like you
2020-09-16 22:53:05 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:53:13 +0200 <Cale> I've been working on GHC lately for one of our clients, and can easily be a good deal more tedious at times than working on our full stack Haskell web/mobile applications.
2020-09-16 22:53:22 +0200 <lc_> I am still giggling that you caught that maerwald btw
2020-09-16 22:53:39 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-09-16 22:53:42 +0200 <lc_> I normally do that to other ppl I know
2020-09-16 22:54:45 +0200rustisafungus(~rustisafu@2602:306:cd3c:9350:210f:c391:77b9:29cb) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-09-16 22:54:56 +0200qqqqqq(~Me@185.142.40.151)
2020-09-16 22:54:59 +0200 <qqqqqq> 6 Proof that 4Jesus worshiped one God same as muslims do: 10- Jesus identifying the commandment: "The Lord our God is One Lord" (Mark 12:29) to be the most important of all As stated in (Mark 12:29): Jesus was asked "Which commandment is the most important of all?" Jesus replied, "This is the most important: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord"12 (Mark 12:29) as in Quran: {Say He is God the one (Allah)} [Quran chapter 112].
2020-09-16 22:54:59 +0200 <qqqqqq> 6 so the above qoute(mark12:29) is a clear evidence that Jesus was directing us towards monothiesm belief and to consider it as the very first of all commandments; 10 also here is the firsts of the The Ten Commandments(to moses) which is similar to what he was directing us towards: [10 1 - I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.]
2020-09-16 22:55:02 +0200qqqqqq(~Me@185.142.40.151) ()
2020-09-16 22:55:20 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:55:21 +0200RoboFlex13(~RoboFlex1@45-24-139-160.lightspeed.gnvlsc.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-09-16 22:55:41 +0200wroathe_(~wroathe@c-73-24-27-54.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
2020-09-16 22:55:47 +0200 <hyperisco> maerwald, move fast and break things man
2020-09-16 22:55:49 +0200 <sm[m]> Graypup_: maybe you're ready to give https://ihp.digitallyinduced.com/ a try ?
2020-09-16 22:55:53 +0200 <Graypup_> is god a monad /s
2020-09-16 22:55:58 +0200 <monochrom> Ironically, I would welcome a theology war if it replaced a language war.
2020-09-16 22:56:08 +0200 <ski> Graypup_ : ask Leibniz ?
2020-09-16 22:56:11 +0200 <maerwald> hyperisco: yeah, but forgot my sunglasses
2020-09-16 22:56:46 +0200wroathe(~wroathe@c-68-54-25-135.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:56:52 +0200 <hyperisco> I need to figure out how to turn renouncing programming into a career
2020-09-16 22:56:56 +0200knupfer(~Thunderbi@i5E86B4D3.versanet.de)
2020-09-16 22:57:00 +0200 <hyperisco> then I can actually renounce programming
2020-09-16 22:57:13 +0200 <hyperisco> was better as a hobby tbh
2020-09-16 22:57:24 +0200 <Graypup_> sm[m], interesting. maybe I'll use it for my personal projects where I am swearing so hard at excel for being a garbage programming tool incapable of even making hyperlinks and want to immediately rewrite as webapps
2020-09-16 22:57:34 +0200 <monochrom> If you like something, don't turn it into a job.
2020-09-16 22:57:50 +0200 <lc_> THis might be my golang speaking, but it feels like 90% of programming is edge cases and it kinda sucks
2020-09-16 22:57:57 +0200 <hyperisco> yeah but I was mistaken on the reason why
2020-09-16 22:58:02 +0200 <monochrom> A job causes burnout. Do you want burnout from something you like?
2020-09-16 22:58:05 +0200wroathe_wroathe
2020-09-16 22:58:05 +0200 <sm[m]> Graypup_: it's new but I think has legs
2020-09-16 22:58:18 +0200 <hyperisco> I thought the reason was because you'd get burned out doing what you used to love to do
2020-09-16 22:58:40 +0200 <sm[m]> (If you can stomach nix)
2020-09-16 22:58:50 +0200 <maerwald> you burn out a few times and then you get input-addicted
2020-09-16 22:58:50 +0200 <monochrom> Yeah that's the reason I know.
2020-09-16 22:59:04 +0200 <hyperisco> and that isn't the issue, as I see it… the issue is that you don't really have enough control over what you do
2020-09-16 22:59:12 +0200 <Cale> monochrom: haha, I wonder what was going through this driveby spammer's head... "This'll blow the minds of all those polytheistic christians in the programming language and software project channels on freenode"
2020-09-16 22:59:32 +0200 <glguy> There's not usually a lot going on in that kind of person's head
2020-09-16 22:59:36 +0200danvet(~Daniel@2a02:168:57f4:0:efd0:b9e5:5ae6:c2fa)
2020-09-16 22:59:47 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-09-16 22:59:48 +0200 <maerwald> Cale: tbf... it could be a teenager.. at least I hope so
2020-09-16 22:59:56 +0200 <hyperisco> so the result is I still say I like to program, but "not this"
2020-09-16 22:59:58 +0200 <monochrom> Cale, I think it's the simpler "this channel size is large enough".
2020-09-16 23:00:00 +0200 <Graypup_> sm[m], funny thing right
2020-09-16 23:00:00 +0200 <maerwald> not sure what to think if an adult wrote that
2020-09-16 23:00:01 +0200Gaz(~Gaz@84.39.116.180) ()
2020-09-16 23:00:04 +0200 <Graypup_> I learned nix before haskell
2020-09-16 23:00:24 +0200danvet_(~danvet@2a02:168:57f4:0:5f80:650d:c6e6:3453) (Quit: Leaving)
2020-09-16 23:00:28 +0200 <Graypup_> because I had to fix my project's build system to not require a giant docker container with ghcjs because ghcjs is such a pain to compile
2020-09-16 23:00:32 +0200 <hyperisco> because "programming" can also be hacking on JSON files to get Cloud Formation working