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2020-09-17 03:13:05 +0200 <Axman6> there are definitely better technological and community reasons to avoid Haskell than some companies are using it for cryptocurrency development
2020-09-17 03:13:44 +0200 <monochrom> We chastise C for the equal and opposite reason. That C makes it easy to write programs that are vulnerable.
2020-09-17 03:14:24 +0200 <Plazma> monochrom: exactly.. scanf() just to name a simple/easy one
2020-09-17 03:14:35 +0200 <monochrom> I.e., while we don't chastise C for aggressors being written in C, we do chastise C for victims being written in C.
2020-09-17 03:14:47 +0200 <monochrom> Hey wait a second, does that count as blaming the victim? >:)
2020-09-17 03:14:52 +0200 <Axman6> for me, a big one is we seem to really struggle to develop projects as a community, we rely on a lot of single person efforts (edwardk's bus factor is astronomical). One of the few prohjects I've seen do a decent job in Haskell as building some sort of community is Servant
2020-09-17 03:15:16 +0200gestone(~gestone@c-73-97-137-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
2020-09-17 03:15:19 +0200 <Plazma> monochrom: you're not on trial here :)
2020-09-17 03:15:30 +0200da39a3ee5e6b4b0d(~textual@2403:6200:8876:37d7:7100:a9d6:e349:d9ad)
2020-09-17 03:15:38 +0200 <Axman6> like I look at Rust and they seem be quite good at having projects which the community contributes to and progress is made quite quickly
2020-09-17 03:15:46 +0200 <Plazma> ahh i see
2020-09-17 03:16:04 +0200 <Plazma> i guess that's whewre community is kind of important..
2020-09-17 03:16:51 +0200 <Axman6> we do have an incredibly supportive community though, people will fall over themselves to help you learn something
2020-09-17 03:17:48 +0200 <MarcelineVQ> Even into a pit of spikes
2020-09-17 03:18:04 +0200 <Axman6> We're also starting to see some decent commercial use and support
2020-09-17 03:19:59 +0200bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b8063aa600b5d933e791b8d0ae.dip.versatel-1u1.de)
2020-09-17 03:20:52 +0200 <Plazma> so i guess in short that article is an opinion piece and worthless for most things
2020-09-17 03:20:56 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-09-17 03:21:27 +0200 <Axman6> that depends on your opinion I think :)
2020-09-17 03:21:52 +0200 <Plazma> i'm new so i don't have any , but the fact they don't mention anything remotely technical it's just some dribble to me
2020-09-17 03:22:03 +0200bitmagie(~Thunderbi@200116b8063aa600b5d933e791b8d0ae.dip.versatel-1u1.de) (Client Quit)
2020-09-17 03:22:09 +0200 <MarcelineVQ> For me there's nothing specific enough to be useful _about haskell_ in that article
2020-09-17 03:22:09 +0200 <Plazma> no offense to the guy personaly, i'm sure he's great and accomplished
2020-09-17 03:22:15 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108)
2020-09-17 03:23:51 +0200 <Axman6> it's not like all of the sommercial use of Haskell is in cryptocurrencies either, by a long shot. there's quite a lot of use in finance., Facebook has their spam detection system written in it, GitHub are using it for their new Semantic (IIRC) project, and several sproduct and contract companies
2020-09-17 03:24:31 +0200 <Axman6> Plazma: Don't write off everything he's written because of that article though, his What I Wish I Knew When Learning Haskell is incredibly valuable
2020-09-17 03:24:48 +0200 <Plazma> Axman6: yea actually i just discovered that too and was probably going to learn haskell better from it
2020-09-17 03:24:48 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-09-17 03:24:57 +0200 <Plazma> and some of his stuff and his company seem pretty legit
2020-09-17 03:25:07 +0200 <Plazma> he probably was just upset about that and wrote it
2020-09-17 03:25:24 +0200 <Plazma> he's not at all saying "don't learn haskell because of this" either, so
2020-09-17 03:25:31 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-09-17 03:25:31 +0200 <Plazma> my friend was probably just being overly opininoated
2020-09-17 03:25:37 +0200 <Plazma> (he told me to learn nim instead)
2020-09-17 03:26:41 +0200RusAlex(~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:26:45 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:26:58 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:27:44 +0200RusAlex(~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex)
2020-09-17 03:28:45 +0200aenesidemus(~aenesidem@c-73-53-247-25.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2020-09-17 03:29:15 +0200bakabiel(~bakabiel@79.104.200.71)
2020-09-17 03:29:29 +0200 <jchia> That article overgeneralizes things. Just because some 'crypto' stuff is bad doesn't mean all crypto stuff is bad. Just because some Haskell users do bad things doesn't mean the Haskell 'community' is bad. We don't do that kind of generalization for other languages. I don't understand how smart people can make this kind of overgeneralization mistakes.
2020-09-17 03:29:53 +0200banner(~banner@116-255-17-98.ip4.superloop.com)
2020-09-17 03:30:22 +0200urodna(~urodna@unaffiliated/urodna) (Quit: urodna)
2020-09-17 03:30:26 +0200 <Plazma> jchia: yea that's my conclusion too.. doesn't really make a lot of sense to me either
2020-09-17 03:30:42 +0200darjeeling_(~darjeelin@115.215.41.222) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:30:53 +0200jbarnette(~jbarnette@185.204.1.185)
2020-09-17 03:31:40 +0200 <monochrom> Programmers seem to be more overgeneralizing than other people.
2020-09-17 03:32:09 +0200 <Plazma> i'm going to assume he was just emotional and upset and wrote it
2020-09-17 03:32:10 +0200 <monochrom> For example consider the "software engineer makes toaster" joke.
2020-09-17 03:32:11 +0200 <Plazma> and it got traction
2020-09-17 03:32:27 +0200 <Plazma> all i know is bread goes in, toast comes out... you can't explain that , man
2020-09-17 03:32:34 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:32:58 +0200bakabiel(~bakabiel@79.104.200.71) (Client Quit)
2020-09-17 03:33:16 +0200wei2912(~wei2912@unaffiliated/wei2912)
2020-09-17 03:33:24 +0200 <monochrom> No no, it's a joke along the line of "a physicist, an engineer, and a programmer are each asked to make a toaster".
2020-09-17 03:33:26 +0200elliott_(~elliott_@pool-71-114-77-65.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
2020-09-17 03:33:26 +0200banner(~banner@116-255-17-98.ip4.superloop.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-09-17 03:33:47 +0200 <Axman6> "Programmers seem to be more overgeneralizing than other people." so meta
2020-09-17 03:33:55 +0200 <monochrom> hahaha busted
2020-09-17 03:34:08 +0200 <jchia> he did say 'seems'
2020-09-17 03:34:26 +0200 <sm[m]> Axman6: there's good team work going on with ide tools lately
2020-09-17 03:34:36 +0200 <monochrom> So the joke goes on to say something funny but pretty OK on how a physicist would make a toaster, and how an engineer would make a toaster.
2020-09-17 03:34:57 +0200 <sm[m]> volunteer, gsoc, and company driven
2020-09-17 03:35:02 +0200 <MarcelineVQ> I just go down to the local library and use their toaster.
2020-09-17 03:36:02 +0200 <monochrom> The punchline is a very long sentence about how a programmer does it by going way overboard with the OOP kind of overgeneralization, plus a prophetic addition that the toast also connects to the Internet. (This joke was decades before the IoT movement.)
2020-09-17 03:36:41 +0200 <monochrom> a long sentence basically enumerating everything one does in OOP
2020-09-17 03:36:44 +0200 <Axman6> sm[m]: yeah that's true
2020-09-17 03:37:02 +0200olligobber(olligobber@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/olligobber)
2020-09-17 03:37:06 +0200 <sm[m]> also haven't ghc, cabal, stack, hackage all involved quite a lot of cooperation
2020-09-17 03:37:38 +0200 <Plazma> monochrom: yo dawg i heard you like OOP and python so we put abstract classes in your classes , but they're not interfaces, but they are..
2020-09-17 03:37:47 +0200rapskalian(~user@2601:804:8400:5750:6d07:cb01:64a9:36bb)
2020-09-17 03:38:11 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108)
2020-09-17 03:40:12 +0200 <monochrom> Also consider that programmers have this saying "YAGNI" and other professions don't.
2020-09-17 03:40:41 +0200 <monochrom> We have it because we're doing poorly so we need this saying to warn ourselves.
2020-09-17 03:41:03 +0200 <monochrom> Other professions don't have it because they're already doing it right and don't need a warning.
2020-09-17 03:41:11 +0200 <sm[m]> KISS is a common saying
2020-09-17 03:41:35 +0200acidjnk_new3(~acidjnk@p200300d0c736587164f46f145ae9b6a7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:41:52 +0200 <monochrom> Well yeah OK so everyone else has one saying, we have two, we are still worse.
2020-09-17 03:42:16 +0200 <monochrom> Consider the possibility that KISS is not strong enough for us.
2020-09-17 03:42:31 +0200kleisli_(~kleisli@172-8-147-49.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:42:42 +0200rapskalian(~user@2601:804:8400:5750:6d07:cb01:64a9:36bb) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:43:13 +0200__Joker(~Joker@180.151.106.108) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:45:15 +0200MarcelineVQlearns the term yagni
2020-09-17 03:45:50 +0200 <sm[m]> Axman6: but I would agree that things usually don't seem to evolve very fast
2020-09-17 03:47:16 +0200 <sm[m]> that seems to be the Haskell way, often - it takes longer to build, but also lasts longer with less rework & maintenance ?
2020-09-17 03:47:51 +0200 <sm[m]> When tooling finally matures, perhaps that will change ?
2020-09-17 03:49:07 +0200 <monochrom> From what I saw, it doesn't take longer to build. Look at tomsmeding's paste site.
2020-09-17 03:49:10 +0200 <sm[m]> or.. the rust army is just much much bigger ? or.. they have more of an engineering and shipping focus ?
2020-09-17 03:49:47 +0200 <monochrom> But whenever more than one author is involved, it takes longer to reach consensus, because there are always more than one elegant way to do it, and they aren't compatible.
2020-09-17 03:50:30 +0200 <sm[m]> So we're like Lisp ? :-/
2020-09-17 03:51:12 +0200 <monochrom> Yes in this aspect.
2020-09-17 03:51:22 +0200 <monochrom> No in how many compilers to choose from.
2020-09-17 03:52:32 +0200 <sm[m]> monochrom: maybe as our libs, architectures, patterns mature, this will improve ?
2020-09-17 03:54:03 +0200 <monochrom> I wouldn't hold my breath.
2020-09-17 03:54:37 +0200Amras(~Amras@unaffiliated/amras0000) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2020-09-17 03:55:32 +0200 <monochrom> Some convergence did happen in the past. transformers and mtl were in competition a long time ago, but one day they agreed to a partition of roles and worked together.
2020-09-17 03:56:03 +0200 <monochrom> pipes and conduit, I predict them to stay that way forever.
2020-09-17 03:56:12 +0200 <monochrom> cabal and stack, I predict them to stay that way forever.
2020-09-17 03:57:55 +0200merijn(~merijn@83-160-49-249.ip.xs4all.nl)
2020-09-17 03:58:07 +0200falafel(~falafel@2605:e000:1527:d491:f090:20fe:cddf:2a1a) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)